God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
Virginian Railroad
Dep, my Lionel SD 40-2's do too. Looks like they have rings or pump problems. I run them on low most of the time. If I use the Legacy brake feature making them sound like a heavy train being pulled, then I go to medium.
OH, that Lionel is a CSX and I would never have one of those.
chuck wrote: Hopes #9 The Material Handling Data Sheet is available for download:Exteremely flamable, avoid contact with skin and eyes, vapor harmful, skin and eye irritant. Harmful if swallowed ....concentrating and inhaling the contents may be harmful or fatal. Stuff contains ethyl benzene, acetone, coal oil, xylene, .....
Hopes #9
The Material Handling Data Sheet is available for download:
Exteremely flamable, avoid contact with skin and eyes, vapor harmful, skin and eye irritant. Harmful if swallowed ....
concentrating and inhaling the contents may be harmful or fatal.
Stuff contains ethyl benzene, acetone, coal oil, xylene, .....
"Hey Doc....what kind of bad stuff do you have to say about Hoppe's #9? I"
I have no clue what's in it, but I assume it's some type of organic solvent mixture. Most organic solvents are bad news when inhaled regularly or put on the skin in large amounts. Some are carcinogenic or toxic to the liver (e.g., benzene, carbon tetrachloride) or otherwise well known as dangerous. Brief exposures to fumes probably aren't going to harm anyone. Daily use for several hours with inhaling of fumes or skin contact is asking for trouble.
Should I stop using WD40"
I use it, but if I'm giving more than a single spritz, I do it outside or in the garage. It's a liquid with very little in vapor phase, and not much gets inhaled unless you're going crazy with the stuff. I'd keep it off your skin, or get it washed off quickly.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Should I stop using WD40 (as smoke fluid in my trains)? Works well and smells mechanical.
David
Fan driven smoke units are pretty new (10 years old).
The problem requires long term exposure. (aka years)
Non Toxic is not the same a safe.
There are studies on long term exposure to atomized lipids, just not directed specifically at toy train smoke. The chemicals and partical sizes often mirror what's found in our smoke fluids. You can drop the following terms into a google search and pull up studies on repiratory distress:
pulmonary lipid exposure studies
The following is a quote from the summary of an Oxford Medical Journal article:
Long-term repetition of episodes of aspiration of oils usually produces non-specific lower lobe opacities presenting mixed alveolar and interstitial features or poorly demarcated lower zone mass-like lesions. CT usually suggests the diagnosis of ELP by showing a low-density consolidation, but this was not observed in the present case. Instead, subtle, bilateral, ill-defined basilar densities progressively increased leading to a less frequently described non-specific pattern of lower zone diffuse ground-glass attenuation, septal thickening and honeycombing, indicative of fibrosis [7]. Oil-mist-related occupational diseases, such as asthma or extrinsic allergic alveolitis, have been reported [8]. Repeated inhalation of paraffin in an occupational setting may also lead to severe pulmonary fibrosis. In the absence of curative treatment, primary prevention in the workplace remains essential. The various forms of exposure should be carefully monitored by occupational physicians, especially when paraffin may be aerosolized, particularly in cardboard crockery factories and the automobile industry.
Long-term repetition of episodes of aspiration of oils usually produces non-specific lower lobe opacities presenting mixed alveolar and interstitial features or poorly demarcated lower zone mass-like lesions. CT usually suggests the diagnosis of ELP by showing a low-density consolidation, but this was not observed in the present case. Instead, subtle, bilateral, ill-defined basilar densities progressively increased leading to a less frequently described non-specific pattern of lower zone diffuse ground-glass attenuation, septal thickening and honeycombing, indicative of fibrosis [7].
Oil-mist-related occupational diseases, such as asthma or extrinsic allergic alveolitis, have been reported [8]. Repeated inhalation of paraffin in an occupational setting may also lead to severe pulmonary fibrosis. In the absence of curative treatment, primary prevention in the workplace remains essential. The various forms of exposure should be carefully monitored by occupational physicians, especially when paraffin may be aerosolized, particularly in cardboard crockery factories and the automobile industry.
"But that doesn't make your case any more believeable. Show me concrete evidence that toy train smoke is killing people. Show me lawsuits that claim this exact thing is happening. Show me something, other than your unsupported opinion that toy train smoke is a danger to users, and I will gladly eat crow."
You want me to show you things that you haven't asked the manufacturers to show you. Ask them to show you evidence that inhalation of toy train smoke is totally safe. They have no evidence whatever. You consider absence of lawsuits evidence of safety. That's not an appropriate measure. Everyone thought it was perfectly safe for people with heart disease to live in cities with particulate air pollution until a few years ago. Now we know that living next to a busy freeway can kill you if you have cardiovascular disease.
I've briefly described the reasons I think toy train smoke can be dangerous under some circumstances, and you obviously don't understand the issues I've raised. This stuff is used by a tiny percentage of the population and the risks are probably quite low, but not zero, so I'm not surprised no lawsuits have occurred. I never said people were dying left and right. I am arguing for appropriate caution because I am absolutely certain that the manufacturers have never done the appropriate animal model studies to look for respiratory or cardiac toxicity after repeated or intense periods of inhalation.
Similar substances (mineral oil sold to treat constipation) can kill people upon accidental inhalation of small amounts (a few ounces or less) of material. That is an absolute fact. You just won't accept it for whatever reason despite my assurances it's a well accepted medical fact.
My concerns are supported by decades of medical and scientific training/experience, detailed knowledge of this area of pathophysiology, and the sure knowledge that the appropriate safety tests have never been performed. The assurances of the safety of these substances are related only to ingestion, not inhalation. Furthermore the assurances of safety are not provided by those with scientific or medical expertise, but rather by manufacturers who sell the stuff. If you'd rather listen to them than me, that's your right, but pardon me if it doesn't convince anyone else. I have no financial motive for telling you one thing or the other, only the desire to protect people from unnecessary risks.
You don't have to eat crow, just don't expose your grandchildren to repeated or intense bouts of toy train smoke if you have an ounce of love for them.
chuck wrote: Do not use smoke units around people or children w/ asthma or other respiritory sensitivites.This is on the JTS MegaSteam web site. These guys make and they sell the stuff and they label it with an appropriate cautionary note. http://www.megasteam.com/
Do not use smoke units around people or children w/ asthma or other respiritory sensitivites.
This is on the JTS MegaSteam web site. These guys make and they sell the stuff and they label it with an appropriate cautionary note.
http://www.megasteam.com/
Also on that website:"Thick, dense smoke output yet it dissipates quickly, leaving little or no "train room fog" hanging in the air. NON-TOXIC. Comes in 2oz bottles with "pin-point" end glass droppers for accurate filling or the 8oz refill size. All of our smoke fluids are scented just right, not too heavy, not too light***. Petroleum-based formula. Smoke itself is non-toxic...though I wouldn't suggest drinking it. Works great with most smoke units (some use the unit users, G gauge, and HO users so far have reported success using Mega-Steam)."I haven't tried drinking any smoke fluid, so I'll take their word on it. Doctor, I have no doubts about it's safety. I only see you posting doubts. As long as smoke has been available in this form, there has been no lawsuits or claims against the manufacturers of the smoke, or the trains that use it. In this litigious day and age, I have no doubts that if there was any chance that train smoke is as hazardous as you opine, there would be lawsuits all over the place. There isn't. No, I don't have a wall full of medical degrees. But that doesn't make your case any more believeable. Show me concrete evidence that toy train smoke is killing people. Show me lawsuits that claim this exact thing is happening. Show me something, other than your unsupported opinion that toy train smoke is a danger to users, and I will gladly eat crow. Dep
"You have zero empirical evidence to support your opinion as it relates to smoke ofrom toy trains."
No, regretably, rather it's that you have close to zero understanding of what I've been trying to communicate, judging by your heated, accusatory responses. There are lots of empirical data supporting my concerns or I wouldn't be making them public. Your defense of toy train smoke when there is significant doubt about its safety in the absence of definitive evidence is not helpful to anyone. What are you suggesting "don't worry, be happy?"
By the way, just for the record, I'm a board certified physician, a professor at one the nation's leading research medical schools, with a few published papers on acute lung injury (in humans, animals and in the lab). I'm sure some folks would like to know what your credentials are for holding such strong opinions on this scientific and medical subject? Or is advocating moderation and prudence, as I'm doing, so reckless that you don't need credentials or expertise, merely indignation?
Everyone repeat after me:
Science proves nothing
The best any scientist can do is offer educated opinions based on collected data. Nothing can ever be proven in science.
It has never been "proven" that cigarettes/tobacco smoke cause lung cancer. Evidence suggests a very strong correlation between those who smoke and those who get lung cancer, and research has found several seemingly valid explantions as to why this is. It will never, however, be proven that smoking causes lung cancer.
So far, Dr. Blumberg has offered an opinion on the toxicity of toy train smoke. Because he is, after all, scientist and practicing physician who has several publications to his name, I tend to give his opinions a bit more weight than, perhaps, a retired sheriff's deputy.
Dr. Blumberg has been telling us for years now that train smoke may not be healthy, and thus I have adopted an additional level of prudence(short term, opening windows) as he suggests. I don't see anything wrong with his suggestion that we all excersize some prudence.
Doctor
I appreciate your input and your advice. Thank you.
John
nblum wrote: Inhaled liquid mineral oil is known to cause something called lipid pneumonia, which can be fatal. That's in liquid form. Inhaling it in vapor form may or may not be safe under various conditions and concentrations, but the one thing that is absolutely certain is that there will be conditions where it isn't safe. I've stated the facts as I know them and my honest medical opinion. As for crying fire in a crowded theatre, it's unclear how that relates to what I'm writing. Your claims about the safety of toy train smoke are much more irresponsible than any of my warnings. Hopefully no one will be misled by your misinformation.
Inhaled liquid mineral oil is known to cause something called lipid pneumonia, which can be fatal. That's in liquid form. Inhaling it in vapor form may or may not be safe under various conditions and concentrations, but the one thing that is absolutely certain is that there will be conditions where it isn't safe.
I've stated the facts as I know them and my honest medical opinion. As for crying fire in a crowded theatre, it's unclear how that relates to what I'm writing. Your claims about the safety of toy train smoke are much more irresponsible than any of my warnings. Hopefully no one will be misled by your misinformation.
Again....your claims are not back up by definitive proof as relates to toy trains. Yes, I am sure if you put a lab rat in a small box and pumped in tons of vaporized mineral oil, that it would suffer some kind of damage. But that is the same type of claim that was made against all kinds of substances in the past, and it simply isn't an accurate representation of it's affect on humans under typical operating conditions. "May or may not be safe under various conditions". Great. The same can be said about just about everything in the universe...example:walking out the front door of your house may or may not be safe under various conditions. You haven't stated facts. You've used a vague interpretation to try and prove your point. There are no facts that apply to specifically to toy train smoke. You have zero empirical evidence to support your opinion as it relates to smoke ofrom toy trains. Warning people about possible death from tpy train smoke is the same as yelling fire in a movie theatre because you are sending an alarm that will cause unfounded panic among toy train users.
Doctor Blum: It took considerably more than just opinions before it was established that cigarette smoke was hazardous to your health. It took a lot of scientific research and data that proved it. And you conveniently ignored my comment about the medical "experts" flip-flopping on eggs, butter, and margerine as health risks. Even after a ton of testing and data, no definitive answer has appeared. You made the rather outrageous and apparently inaccurate comment that "Inhaled in small amounts in liquid form they can be fatal." First off you don't define specifically what "small amounts" constitute, and secondly, there is no evidence at all that this statement holds true for toy train smoke. We certainly aren't seeing parents, kids, and even train fanatics who inhale huge quantities of this smoke keeling over left and right. On the contrary, we see these same folks inhaling these same large quantities of smoke year after year. Perhaps if you were more specific about the exact conditions that would make this smoke fatal, we could understand you better. Are you talking about people in small rooms, that are nearly totally sealed from outside air, breathing in smoke that is so thick that you can't see your hand in front of you? Or are you talking about someone passing by a train exhibit at Macys that happens to have a smoking toy train, and a person gets a strong whiff of the smoke? Making a comment that "Inhaled in small amounts in liquid form they can be fatal" is tantamount to walking into a movie theatre and screaming FIRE!!!! It's irresponsible and is a discredit to anyone who claims to be a member of the medical profession.
" Well I guess it's time to call out the lawyers and sue both Lionel and MTH for reckless endangerment. T"
This is going to come as bad news to you. Most of what we do in medicine is educated guesswork based upon what we do know for certain. We know nothing specifically about toy train smoke and its short and long term effects on people. What we do know is that similar substances can cause serious problems. A reasonable argument can be constructed based upon existing knowledge that toy train smoke represents a hazard. Once upon a time, the medical profession and the industry and folks like you howled with derision at the idea that cigarette smoke could be hazardous. Cigarettes were advertised as good for your health. Needless to say, further data rendered these opinions, shall we say, dubious?
So yes, if someone had a bad asthma attack or a heart attack during exposure to these products, it's entirely possible they could successfully sue the manufacturer of the product, or the people running the train show. That's the way our legal system works, like it or not.
You refuse to accept the fact that expert medical opinion could be produced to suggest that there is presently good reason to be concerned about the safety of exposure to toy train smoke. A jury might or might not agree with you. I'm not saying I agree with this approach to settling such issues, but if I was a manufacturer of toy trains, I wouldn't be making any that produce toy train smoke at this stage of our knowledge, unless I placed a warning on the product that we don't know about its safety for all people at all times. Vaporized mineral oil isn't something one should be encouraging the consumer to inhale. I'm offering you my opinion as a physician and scientist with close to 40 years experience after college. You're obviously free to ignore my views if you wish. I'm not trying to make trouble, I'm trying to prevent people from harming themselves and their loved ones unwittingly.
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