Possible substitutes for piano wire, Gorrilla glue

[FJ and G]

I try to read everything I can about other modelers' scratchbuilding techniques. The words "piano wire" comes up quite frequently, esp. in regards to making handrails (for example as replacements for Williams' thick handrails on their geeps and u-boats) and as cables for making remote manual turnouts.

I've never seen piano wire (I didn't find any at the local hobby shop) so I don't know much about the properties of this material, whether it is single strand or not and what it is made of.

Anyway, I was at Home Depot the other day, and picked up some really inexpensive rolls (less than $2 each for about 50 feet a spool) of 18 and 20 gauge bare copper wire and spools of steel galvanized wire in the same sizes to do some experimenting to see which materials hold up best for handrails, and which take solder.

I'd like to hear from anyone who has used a substitute. i thought about coat hangers but they seem a bit thick and I'm unsure how well they take solder; tho strong glue would probably work, which brings me to the next point. Glue.

Some folks use solder, some use glue, some both.

Does anyone have experience with "Gorrilla Glue?" Is the advertisement misleading that it is the world's strongest glue. I'd be interested in hearing more about this. I know that some of you swear by plyobond glue, and even use it as substitutes for traction tires.

I know that I changed the topics in this post a bunch so I hope you can follow my schizoid-like "trains" of thoughts, aka, streams of conscious.

Dave Vergun, escapee from The Institution

[jkerklo]

Piano wire is literally the wire that is hit by the hammers in a piano. When a tuner has to replace the wires for a note in the piano he selects from a number of spools of the stuff of different sizes.

Piano wire is high-carbon steel, meaning it is stronger than soft steel wire, is "springee," and can be heat-treated. (propane torch works well)

I comes in a range of gauges from hair fine to around 1/8 th inch.

It can be used to make small tools, like scribes and picks, etc. I have used it to make a hook tool for cleaning the gunk out of armature slots.

If you train store doesn't carry it, try a hobby store that specializes in RC planes. RC Modellers use piano wire for interconnecting servos with control surfaces, etc. on the plane.

It usually comes in three-foot sections in cardboard tubes, sold by the individual wire. Look where the brass tubing and structural shapes are kept.

It doesn't solder well. Use brass if you need to solder.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[FJ and G]

Thanks, John,

So sounds like piano wire isn't the best material unless you use glue or simply crimp the stanchions over the piano wire railing.

I wonder if my daughter would notice if I removed some piano wires from the piano, maybe the real hi or low notes.

[Big_Boy_4005]

For the hand rail replacement I would recommend BRASS. Hard enough to hold it's shape, easy to work with, inexpensive, easy to find, and easy to solder.

For turnout linkages, the old choke cable method is still a good one, but now you can get them in light weight plastic. I have used these before, like John said, a hobby store that does RC airplanes will have these. They call them push rods, and I think there is a brand called Ny Rod, but it has been a long time since I've bought any. The connector on the end of the rod is called a clevis.

Even with the rods, you will still need some kind of crank to go between the rod and throw bar on the turnout. This is where the piano wire comes in. There is no good substitute here. I have two methods for doing cranks. One under table and one surface.



Above is what an under table installation would look like.
Below is a surface mount installation.

[brianel027]

Dave, I can't think of the names of the company that makes all the metal tubing, beams and wire for modelers - but the company makes all kinds of stuff. I've been using the brass wire - wire is not really the right word, but it comes in different diameters and is about 12 inches long as sold. I've been using it for years to make extra handrails for my MP-15's and S-2's. I remove a couple of the molded stantions on the K-Line 027 tank cars, make the remaining molded ones smaller, and then make my own new handrail out of a thinner piece of brass which looks much better. Of course I'm also repainting the car too. I've made guardrails on the end platforms on the plunger activated Lionel coal dump cars. I've made new ends for the shorty K-Line baywindow caboose. I've made handrails for scratchbuilt buildings.

I've also used the piano wire - although I don't believe they call it that - by the very same company that makes the brass pieces. The brass bends much easier than the steel wire, although the steel wire is probably more "durable" for that reason.

In either case, I use a piece of sandpaper first to roughen up the wire surface. Then I make my bends and shape the wire. Then I paint it whatever color it needs to be, before installing it. A paint pen makes easy work of whatever little touch ups might be needed.

There was one glue I really liked that isn't made anymore. I now use UHU glue or Duco cement which both work pretty good.

And I'd be willing to bet your daughter wouldn't be too pleased to know her favorite piano high note is now on Dad's train layout somewhere. You might force her into taking up the tuba or the drums!!
But we're up to the challenge Dave - there must be some way to incorporate the tuba or a drum kit into a train layout!!!

[FJ and G]

wow, thanks all; I'm gonna download this info & save in a Word document. Anyone else do this with valuable posts?

Brianel,

Getting the tuba to mimic a diesel horn would be pretty cool. Actually an entire band could simulate the sounds of a train. As a matter of fact, this has been done before and sold as records.

Johnny Cash's Folsom Prison has some train effects in it as do many others. Also, interestingly and hard to believe but true, some modelers actually blow train whistles when running their trains.

[Anonymous]

The stuff Elliot refers to is indeed called Ny Rod. It's a splined yellow nylon tube inside of a larger red smooth nylon tube. This reduces the friction. You snake the red tube through the path the rod is supposed to take, then cut the yellow rod longer & pu***hat through the red one.

In an R/C airplane, one end receives a threaded rod that connects to a clevis, which gets snapped onto a servo through. The other end gets another threaded rod that connects to another clevis which gets connected to a bell crank or other throw connected to a control surface.

Thicker gauge piano wire is often used on R/C planes to form landing gear. Several pieces are bent & soldered together. The soldering technique used involves wrapping the joint with thin coper wire, then soldering the wrappings. The wire holds the parts together during the solderig and helps it adhere to the joint afterwards. I believe you have to use acid core flux inthis application.

Tony

[Anonymous]

David:

Re: Gorrila glue:

I don't know if it's the strongest glue on the planet, but it does have a distinctive aroma. It works well, but it requires you to clamp everything together for 24 hours. Also, after about 20 minutes to an hour, the stuff foams & expands, so you have to be careful that it doesn't get anywhere you don't want it.

I've used it to repair broken ceramic aquarium pieces with good results.

Tony

[lionelsoni]

I have used paper-clip wire for handrails, when it was the right diameter.

Brass wire is easy to plate with tin to hide the yellow color. Use plumbing solder, which is almost pure tin, rather than tin-lead solder, which will blacken with time. Wiping the wire with a paper towel while the tin is molten will leave a very smooth satin-like white-metallic surface.

Do not try to cut piano wire with wire cutters or saws or files. It is much too hard and will ruin them. It will break if bent too sharply.

[jkerklo]

I neglected to mention that piano wire should not (cannot) be cut with most pliers. I use an abrasive wheel in a Dremel.

By-the-way, if you want to tin plate brass wire, or anything metal, there is a product used in the electronics industry called "Tinnit." It is commonly used for tin plating the traces on circuit boards made in small numbers. I use it.

It is two chemicals that are mixed together and heated. Any metal placed in the solution acquires a shiney tin plating.

You can get Tinnit from All Electronics or Jameco.


John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

John, I just invested $15 and picked up a special set of nippers for the hardened piano wire. It works great, and no more flying cut off disks. I'll have to find a new use for my Dremel, since I don't cut track with it anymore either![swg]

[jkerklo]

Where did you get them? Carbide faced?

I could use a pair. It would be a lot more convenient than the Dremel.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[butleryard]

A few months ago, I was looking for piano wire, went to HD and the guy who I asked about it, had a puzzled look on his face and said "You're going to have to go to a musical store to buy that!". WOW!!!!!...... I ended up stopping by a True Value hardware store and they had different diameters.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vitabile

David:

Re: Gorrila glue:

I don't know if it's the strongest glue on the planet, but it does have a distinctive aroma. It works well, but it requires you to clamp everything together for 24 hours. Also, after about 20 minutes to an hour, the stuff foams & expands, so you have to be careful that it doesn't get anywhere you don't want it.

I've used it to repair broken ceramic aquarium pieces with good results.

Tony

To add to what Tony said. Only buy what you think can use within 6 months, since it doesn't store well after opening. I have used it for gluing chairs back together and I would say it is stronger than yellow glue. However, I have not found a need to use it in Model Railroading. It foams way too much for the models and is over kill for bench work given its higher cost, IMHO.
Enjoy
Paul

[Big_Boy_4005]

John, I picked them up at the local hobby store. They're made by Xuron, and specially designed for piano wire. I paid $15.99 plus tax, but by the time I'm done with my layout, they will have been well worth it.

Butleryard, sometimes those people working at Home Depot don't know all the things they have in those stores. I think the one near me has a K&S Metals rack, just like you find in the hobby store, hiding over in the hardware section.

An hour or two spent browsing the aisles, may be well worth it if you come across a new product or get a new idea, while you're there. Beside, then you'll know if they carry certain items if you need them, and can run right to them, cutting your shopping time down.

[Anonymous]

you can also call a piano tuner/repairperson and ask for used wire. it's where my grandfather would get it.

[jkerklo]

Thanks, Elliot.

I will look for them the next time I am at Caboose.

John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

You're welcome John. When you said Caboose, I had to see where you lived!! I grabbed my directory.

Say Hi to the guys there, and when you drive by the Forney WAVE to the REAL 4005 for me please!!!![swg]

Is Duane Miller still the owner of Caboose?

Ever go to Mizell's? If you do, definitely say hi to Warren for me, and tell him where I'm hanging out these days. The last time I saw him was at the TCA convention in St Paul in 93.[:)]

Do you remember Downtown Hobbies? I used to work there!

I think I'm way overdue for a visit, but I have no idea when I could do it.[;)]

[jkerklo]

Elliott,

The Forney Museum has moved, generally on Brighton Blvd. near the stock show complex. Big Boy 4005 is still there. There was a group restoring it and hoping for a steam up, but I haven't heard anything about it for a while. A steam up would be amazing, considering that engine's history. I assume you know the website:
www.forneymuseum.com

Caboose expanded a while back (since 1993 if I remember right). It is still a dangerous place for one's wallet, even for a toy train operator. So much to buy, so little money. I don't know Duane, but I seem to remember that store management changed a couple of years ago (not for the better, according to some toy train operators). Still the best place for scale modellers and scenery stuff.

Warren also expanded, doubling the size of the store. Still has the best assortment of postwar for sale, and the best prewar collection on display I have ever seen. He is the authority I consult for any prewar questions. I was up there last week buying some Marx trackside accessories for pictures on my web site. Warren is doing well.

Check out his web site:
http://www.mizelltrains.net/

I will mention you to him, but send him an e-mail.

I remember the Downtown Hobbies store, but only as a curious sign on a building that had been boarded up ever since I can remember. Everyone has stories about the place.

You definately have to pay a visit to your namesake in its new home. Let me know, and we can plan a trip to Forney's together. I like the place.

RMD/TCA meetings are first Sunday of the month. Next meet is August. RMD puts on a good meet, even in the summer.


John Kerklo
TCA 94-38455
www.Three-Rail.com