Dave and Elliot discuss hand laid track

[Big_Boy_4005]

While we were discussing what kind of trains we like to buy over on another topic, one of Dave's comments caught my attention. I felt that this might be an interesting subject to share with everyone, rather than keeping it to ourselves. Just "listen" or feel free to jump in any time.[:D]

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Dave:
I also handlay my own track and turnouts. This is a big savings. Also cut my own ties and make my own scenery from weeds, sawdust etc.

Also, instead of buying modeling supplies from train stores, I try to get it from Home Depot.

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Elliot:
Dave where do you get the rail for hand laying? I have done a fair amount in HO and 2 rail O, and have done a little repair work on some 3 rail. My other question is where do you find a track gauge for hand laying? I had started to try a double slip switch, when Atlas decided to make one, then Ross followed. I was just using Atlas rail taken from a piece of flex track.

I use a lot of those other techniques and materials too. I like to go cheap where ever I can these days. I have a large railroad to cover, but lots of time.

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Dave:
Handlaying track:

I've tried several methods, incl Code 148 with code 70 for center rail.

My current layout will use 027 tubular. Center rail is 14 gauge single strand wire, soldered to copper nails. Ties are lauan board cut with table saw. I attach rails to ties using Marine Goop, which is a strong, waterproof adhesive.

Of course I remove the metal ties from the tubular track. Several advantages to laying your own track.

1. looks better
2. cheaper, esp for turnouts
3. can "weather" the rails easily before gluing to ties
4. can make any diameter curves (custom-fitted) & turnouts
5. it's fun to do; for me anyway
6. the center rail looks much less visible

If you are interested in discussing this further, we can start a post on the topic or you can contact me at [e-mail].

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So, here we go!!![:)]

[Big_Boy_4005]

Here's my situation; I have a lot of Gargraves track left over from the mall display. I also have a lot of switches. But when I drew my new layout I was in "dream mode" and didn't bother to count, but just let my imagination run.

The switches are from a couple of manufacturers. About one third are from Curtis and are real quality switches. Most survived the salvage process, but a few need repairs. No problem there.

The remaining switches were made by Right of Way, remember them? They were less expensive back then, and justifiedly so. They will need a fair amount of repair, and have one common major problem. The points tend to break free from the throw bar.

For this reason I am very reluctant to put them in any high traffic areas of my new layout. I don't mind using them for yards and industries, just not on the mainline or in hidden locations.

To me handlaying is a very acceptable solution to my problem, because of my experience, the reduced cost, as well as the totally custom aspect of this method.

The secret is finding the tools and materials necessary to do it.

Dave, where did you get code 148 rail???[?][:)]

[Anonymous]

I have been practicing handlayiing Atlas O gauge 3 rail track for a while. THe biggest problem is finding a proper bender to allow for smooth curves. Micro Mark has a bender, though at 100.00, i havnt tried it yet. I have used standard Atlas three rail track, trip the rails, then use ties and a bit of walthers goo to tak it all down. then i go thru and spike it. THought the rail is a bit higher, i am willing to pay the price in return for greater liencincy in my operations. I have also used the Atlas Pratt truss bridge add on kit to good effect this way. Bill

[Big_Boy_4005]

I gotta tell everyone, that I have never been a gluer, I'm a spiker!! I have heard of gluing though, back in my N gauge days over 20 years ago, I knew a guy that wanted to do Nn3 with code 40 rail. Spikes would split the ties, so glue was the way to go.

I have laid hundreds of feet individual rail and have never used any kind of bender on the rail. Are you talking about Atlas flex track, or individual rails?

[FJ and G]

Here goes. Deep breath.

A friend of mine gave me a section of Atlas code 148 track to play with. House of Duddy also sells the rails at a much cheaper price.

I experimented a lot, building test modules that I could run trains thru. Even built a stub switch. I used my propane torch to melt down some MTH realtrack and salvage the rails. These are hard to bend but they do bend.

I found 027 tubes to be extremely easy to bend and as a severe test case, even bent an 027 curve to a straight. Why so easy to bend? There are tiny ridges on the neck of the rail that give it an easy bend. Also, the base of the rail is very wide and easy to either spike or glue.

Here's some stuff I posted on a different forum relating to some of my activities. Don't know if all the links are still up:

Want free, fast, easy switches in ANY radius—072, 096, wye’s, ladder switches for yards, switches on curves, etc etc? Here are instructions on how to make them in about 1 hour a piece or less with minimum tools and know-how. There is no longer ANY reason to pay $50 to $99 for a switch!
I have made them for 027 but the same principals work for any other track you may have. To my knowledge, no one else in the hobby has gone public with their switch plans—they usually charge a fee for the plans. As a service to this forum, and in keeping with sharing ideas, I present the plans. A buddy of mine said that I should go into business!:
For discussion of nomenclature, please examine switch (turnout) terminology on the following website so you are up to snuff on the vocabulary:
http://www.usace.army.mil/inet/usace-docs/armytm/tm5-628/chap8.pdf
I will refer to parts of a turnout in Figures 8-1 and 8-7.
You can view my scratchbuilt switch on page 2 of my website:
http://davidvergun.tripod.com/
(I have what is known as an economy website with low bandwidth so you may have to wait a couple of hours until traffic dies down on it to view the objects. Once this post moves down the page or to page two, it will be accessible.)
First, you need a base to work on. Any sturdy base will work—a sheet of 1/4-inch plywood or thick sheet metal; anything—but make it a little bigger than the size of the switch you have in mind. I used a sheet of 1/4-inch plywood and sheetmetal (from Home Depot in the metal conduit section) attached to the wood with self-tapping sheet metal screws. The reason I used sheetmetal is so that the switch mechanism would slide back and forth easily without wearing anything out, but you could choose instead to just put a small piece of sheet metal under the mechanism that I will describe shortly.
Next, you need to decide which kind of switch you would like. You can go to a hobby shop and trace one out with the flat side of a pencil on paper or you can simply draw your own ANY way you wish.
Next, you will need to cut some ties. I used 1/4-inch plywood from Home Depot. I used a table saw but you can use a handsaw too. Remember to cut with the grain as that is how ties are cut in the prototype. Standard ties are about 2 and 1/2-inches long and 1/2-inch wide. You can vary those dimensions and the space between the ties. On a switch, many of your ties will need to be several times longer than that, however. I then stain the ties with wood stain. You may use brownish latex if you so wish.
Once the ties are cut, I glue them to the base with Marine Goop (pictured on my website). This Goop is VERY strong and is waterproof. It too can be found in Home Depot (or Lowe’s). Let Goop dry at least 24 hours. However, it sets up in about an hour so you can actually continue working on other parts of the switch because after an hour the ties won’t move. BTW, I had to remove a tie and the Goop was so strong that the tie pulled apart lengthwise because the Goop was stronger than the wood!!!!
Now, you are ready to lay rails!!!!
I will post a couple instructions on how to lay rails and obtain rails and bend rails to this thread shortly in a few minutes. Suffice it to say, you need some 027 rails and some RealTrax rails (you can certainly substitute any other brand). The 027 and RealTrax rails are the same height. My layout is 027 tubular but I needed the RealTrax rails for the points of the switch and the frog because you can shave these down; whereas you can’t shave tubular because it is hollow inside.
The most critical component in the switch is the switch mechanism (switch rods that connect the left- and right-hand switch points for making the switch move back and forth). Once this piece is completed, the rest is a cakewalk.
I had some false starts with the switch mechanism. I followed the prototype and for my connecting switch rods, I soldered HO nickel-silver rails to the underside of the point rails and out to the switch throw. After testing and retesting and testing some more, I found the solder wasn’t strong enough and would be vulnerable to breakage.
I needed STRONGER switch mechanism. After pondering the problem with Jim Beam (in the photo), I came up with a solution. I connected the left and right switch point rails to two ties with Marine Goop. The two ties slide back and forth, sandwiched between the regular ties. This serves to correctly guide the points in the correct alignment.
You will need to shave the top of the ties down in between the point rails because your center rail needs to go on top and if it is resting on the switch mechanism ties, the ties will get stuck and not move!
I bent all rails by hand. I shaved the point rails and the frog rails and the rails that come in contact with the point rails on the outside (curved and straight stock rails) with a bench grinder. Alternately, you can use a Dremel tool with a file attachment (pictured on the switch photo on my website). I tried the Dremel filing tool and it worked just as well as the bench grinder. If you don’t have any power tools, you can file the rails by using a hand file.
It is VERY important that you have a gauge. Your rails can be as much as 1/4-inch off on each side but you will want to make the spacing as precise as possible. I used a screw compass (pictured on my website with the switch) so that the compass wouldn’t inadvertently open or close on me. The compass measures the distance between the rails. If you don’t have a compass you can use a ruler or even a piece of cardboard with tick marks.
There are several other critical areas of the switch. There needs to be gaps in certain areas so that the rollers that roll on the center rail do not contact the outside rails. Also, there are gaps at the frog to allow the wheel flanges access to go straight or to turn. At any given moment, you might have one wheel on your four-wheel truck to be momentarily out of contact with a rail. The other 3 wheels on the truck, however, are far enough apart and act as a sort of tripod to prevent derailment. Also, your guardrails will prevent the truck from wandering. BTW, the guardrails were made from the black center rails of MTH RealTrax.
Electrical contact. It is important that at the VERY least, you maintain electrical flow on the curved stock rail and on the straight stock rail. The point rails and the straight closure rails and the curved closure rail need not be powered. Also, you will need power in the center rail. There will be a gap in the center rail but there should not be a problem as there are usually two rollers on rolling stock and engines that use rollers spaced sufficiently apart.
Keeping alignment is easier than you think. Simply glue down your curved stock rail and straight stock rail in any direction you wish without measuring or alignment (use Goop to glue down rails). Then use your alignment tool to align and bend the other rails. Simple!
It is much easier than my explanation.
You can either keep your switch manual or power it with a motor. I powered mine with an 027 switch machine attached to the slider ties. Trains ran fine thru my custom switch the first time. You can always fine-tune the rails. For example, where the center rail stops and starts you may want to make a slight slope to the end of it so that the center rollers ease onto it and don’t ram it. I found it useful to have a lighted caboose handy to run the trucks and rollers back and forth to ensure alignment and roller contact. BTW, my switch starts out for a few inches at 042 and then goes much straighter so that the switch actually is about an 066, if that makes any sense.
Some end notes:
All of the rails that you see were hand-bent from 027 tubular and 031 Railtrax to prove that you can bend rails from the sharpest angles. It would have been much easier to use rails from straight track, but I did it this way as an experiment.
For the final touch I would add ballast to the track.
You don’t really need to mix different types of rails like I did on my experiment. You can use your favorite rails. The only problem with tubular as mentioned is making the indentations on the sides for the point rails. You can’t shave them off but you could bend them inward. The problem with bending them inward is that the top portion of the tube will go up and you will have a humpback rail. One solution is to put the rail in a vice and then bend it inward with a hammer and chisel. The vice should prevent the top of the rail from humpbacking. I didn’t try this. Instead, I simply used solid rail (MTH) in the critical portions that needed to be shaved.
For the motor, I tore out the switch motor from an 027. I didn’t yet try making the switch an automatic nonderailer. To do so, you would just run wires to the appropriate rails and follow the pattern of a nonderailing switch. Power for the motor can be from the track or from a separate source.
You can mount the 027 motor underneath your benchwork and connect it via piano wire to make it more prototypical. You also can install LEDs to indicate red or green (straight or turnout position).
Once your switch is complete, you can remove the sheet metal screws holding the sheet metal base to the 1/4-inch wood backing. You can then attach the sheet metal base to your table so that the switch will mate at the correct height with the rest of your track. The wood base was just extra support for the switch while you are working so that the base doesn’t flex and move around on you.
In the future I will experiment with prototypically correct swiveling points—as of now, the two point rails are fixed and don’t swing back and forth, instead the two ties slide back and forth in unison between the fixed ties.
You can use a Dremel cutting wheel to cut rails or you can use a razor saw.
Rails are connected to each other with solder on the outsides to prevent interference with flanges. You don’t really need pins or joiners; they are optional as long as your alignment is perfect.
Now that you have successfully built your first switch, you can easily mass produce them and try your hand at other radiuses or Ys or even single and double-slip switches!
If you run into problems, consult with Jim Beam, relax, and come back to the problem when you are in a better mood. You can do it!
Well folks, I’m in the middle of thinking about moving and some other things not train related so it will probably be a while before I restart scratchbuilding. Perhaps next year. When I do restart my scratchbuilding, expect to see a lot of operating accessories and other cool things. I’ll keep you posted.
Good luck.

and

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The beauty of these switches is that they look hi-rail but they also can be made to look good with toy track, depending on how you arrange the ties or which rails you choose to use. Once the switch is ballasted, it looks as good as any on the market.
One other tip. Try to make the gap as close as possible at the heel of the switch and at the toe of the frog. Run your test caboose with rollers thru frequently. You can always shave the rails back if you need to. Also, make just enough clearance in the frog flangeway for the wheels to pass thru without climbing a rail. I surprised myself and laid it in right the first time. It is sort of like a puzzle. But once you do it, it is easy to repeat.

and

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since posting that gibberish, I've modified my tracklaying by using a single strand of 14 gauge copper, taken from leftover Romex cable, soldered to tiny copper nails. I found the look of the wire with the 027 tubes was actually better (art deco) than the smaller code 148 with code 70 center rail.

The 14 ga wire seems to disappear more with the larger 027 rails and the silvery and copper look of the 3 rails is pleasing.

[FJ and G]

oh, the photos on my website are my first experiment (stub switch). I mixed 2 types of rail but now use 14 ga as center rail, and going with standard turnouts with much smaller angles than the one pictured. The whole process is fun and easy once you do the first one. You just need a template and follow a checklist.

[FJ and G]

Here's a pretty nice site I found on tracklaying. It's HO but most of the principals still apply.

I'm planning to build up my frog, btw, using either solder over brass or JD Weld, then filing a flangeway w/the dremel.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Wow Dave, that's cool.

My method is going to end up having some twists from that. When I started on that double slip, I glued the ties down to a piece of Homasote. On my railroad I'm going to be using foam insulation as roadbed.

I suspect that each turnout will be laid in place. I'm not sure if I'm going to stick with the solid rail like the Atlas or the House of Duddy, or try to locate the type of rail used by both Ross and Curtis, which is a slight variation on Gargraves, or try to ues Gargraves and try to dovetail the ties.

It might be possible to use a Dremel and simply slot the ties and drop the Gargraves rail in, and apply some glue. This new idea is a direct result of this conversation. I have a good sized pile of Gargraves rail, and this sounds like its worth a try.

As a track gauge I have a set of calipers, but may make a permanent metal gauge.

[FJ and G]

B-B,

I accidentally clicked onto your name instead of the topic and saw your cool helix.

Anyway, some thoughts.

Another advantage of 027 besides low price and easy-to-bend rails, is that the center rail is identical to the outside rails & you end up w/1/3 more rail.

Also, you can weather the rail rusty brown before you mount it on the ties.

I'm going to veer off track again (I have a bad habit of doing this) and disclose to you some of my plans (After about 4:30 p.m. EST today, I won't be back online until Monday because I'll be engrossed on this project as well as walking the Beagle--actually she walks me).

Anyway, where was I? Oh yes. I'm using the Malcolm method this time--my first--of emplacing the styrofoam mountains, then cutting the foam for the river and then cutting (and fills) for the track last and yes, my track too will be layed on the foam directly. First, ties glued on foam, followed by crushed gravel ballast that I acquired from spillage outside a gravel plant, then rails. The wires and feeder drops will go thru the foam using an 18-in drill bit that can get thru the foam and under the table.

One novel technique I would like to try is to use the wiring underneath the layout as an element of art. I know this sounds crazy and you all want to hide the wiring but if the wiring is neatly run, I think it looks cool. Of course I will likely change my mind as I'm working and finding that something doesn't look right.

One other thing I've done for fun, is run a special construction train on the track as I'm drilling cuts thru mountains and building temporary bridges and making fills. The train consists of gondola cars loaded with parts that I need. I know this sounds hokey but it's fun.

Dave Vergun

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, I forgot to mention FIBREGLASS over on the water topic. Light weight!

I was just downstairs gluing down some sections of foam to the plywood and screwing down some track. I found these really cool screws that I had never seen before, over at Home Depot, and bought a box. They look like drywall screws, but they have a very small square drive head, and are called trim screws.

Because all of my track was salvaged from the mall layout, the Gargraves ties had been drilled and counterbored, and these screws are PERFECT. Perfect length to go through the tie ,foam, and into the wood below.

I also went out in the garage, where I have a ton of poplar scraps left over from doing the trim work on my house. With just a few quick cuts I had stripwood for ties, a perfect match for Gargraves track.

I've posted the helix picture around here before, but what did you think of Lionel Linus?[:)]

[Anonymous]

David:

Ever think of making a jig to hold the ties so you can construct the turnouts without gluing them to the sheet metal? You can probably make one out of wood that would hold the ties at the proper separation. You'd essentially drop the ties into "holes" and then glue &/or spike the rail to the ties.The "holes" would have to be the shape of the ties, of course, and hold them securely. They'e probably have to be about half the dept of the ties so the ties stand up.

Just a thought

Tony

[FJ and G]

Tony,

Great idea! I'll try that. If we get 10 or 20 others with ideas like yours and others we can have a rockin forum here.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tony, that's how I always laid ties out for regular track when I did 2 rail, but then I took a piece of masking tape, and lifted out a whole strip of ties and glued them down. That idea works up to a point with switches, but as you make different sizes the tie pattern changes. The generic jig, with tape, then glue may still be the way to go.

As I get my track closer to an area where I want a couple of curved switches, I'll post my progress here, and keep everyone up to date.

[spankybird]

Hi All,

I was at a train show today and saw this. It’s O gauge layed inside G gauge. If you’re ever planning on a garden layout, why not also have your O gauge with it.





for what it’s worth

tom