Using Real Water

[FJ and G]

This weekend I'm starting my layout. One feature will be real water, flowing down a 1.25% gradient. The water will be pumped to the top of the canyon and flow down about 30 feet, simulating a desert freshet. When the pump is not on, the water will drain into a bucket.

I plan to use concrete for a base with a layer of resin over it, then after the resin has dried, I will add a layer of concrete over that (will pre-color the concrete) to simulate the stream bed. Some weeds to represent desert shrubbery will be embedded into this top layer of concrete. The area I'm modeling is the lower level of Abo Canyon.

I'd be interested in hearing from anyone else who has used real water. I already know about the danger of trains falling in the river. This happens with real railroads as well.

Dave Vergun

[Anonymous]

Hi Dave,

I personally do not use real water, but have visited layout which do, it is a very nice effect. There was even a fi***ank the water ran into after the steam or river.

[Anonymous]

Hi there. While on my layout I don't have real water, where I work we use real water. If you tone the bottom, then it looks super-real. I don't believe that we have used concrete to make our 'riverbed', I'd be interested as to see how that effects your layout.

On ours we have boats that travel through the water. This is done by a magnet on the boat, and one on a chain under the platform. One thing that you have to watch out for is the mold, crust, and algae that grow, and you have to watch our for leaks.

Becareful with the trains around the water, as I'm sure others have told you. The electronics don't always work right after they are dry.

Good luck!

[FJ and G]

TrainMaster,

I won't be "toning the bottom" because I've been studying pictures of the canyon (which serves the Santa Fe) and the canyon is dry with some puddles most of the year except during infrequent rains. Thusly, my canyon will remain dry most of the times until I turn on my CD of lighting storm and flash my laser lights and turn on the pump. I am having my daughter draw a thunderstorm background as well.

The magnet idea sounds nice but my stream will not be navigable unless someone wants to kayak it.

I plan to use food coloring to give the water a brownish look.

I plan to do a write-up for CTT magazine on the project, which will include hand-layed track and switches and other neat ideas. The area I'm modeling will be super hi-rail (if there is such a word), but future areas of the layout that go into other rooms in which I will expand will include traditional toy train things; even oversized gatemen.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, it sounds like you have it all quite well planned out. Normally I advise against any use of real water, but this sounds like a really cool and practical effect, and because the water will return to the reservoir after each use, it should have no real impact on the layout or the trains.

You did say bucket, but I would suggest a small necked container with a cover, like a milk jug which will reduce the amount of evaporation. Just run the drain line in and the pump line out.[swg]

[Anonymous]

That does sound really neat! Now all you have to do is install a small sprinkler system to have the rain effect......

That has been a project that I would like to undertake sometime. There was a layout around me that would alternate through day/night and then have a small rain. It closed down awhile ago though.

Go with Big_Boy's advice with the milk jug, or if you're the handy-man, install a small plumbing system. Looking forward to the article though.

[Anonymous]

David:

The only contribution that I can make is to suggest that you take the time to waterproof areas adjacent to the stream bed. Water can travel far via capillary action. Take the time to test everything to make sure water isn't getting to unexpected places by traveling through small cracks.

Good luck!

Tony

[butleryard]

David, I'll give you my 2 cents worth...
The first thing that came to me was "BACTERIA" and the famed "LEGENDAIRES DICEASE" , not to burst your bubble, but something to think about.
Bacteria does grow in stagnet water and when you running water down a river, you may get droplets in the air and breath these in and have problems.
Even if you are using city, (clhorinated) water, the chlorine will eventually dissapate as it is doing its job by killing bacteria.
If you don't change the water enough, you will have problems. You could add a little bleach(chlorine) to it, but may take out any coloring it comes in contact with.

If are are going to water, at least change the water every other day and you won't have any problems.

[lionel2341]

David, are you going to use my pump system diagram?? It's a clean way to do it. Secondly, use Distilled water and you will not have any problems. Use "clear water" from the fish store and your water will stay crystal clear.

[Anonymous]

Also be careful about any electrical wiring even close to the water
effect. Any stray leakage currents will cause MUCH CORROSION
in/on any metal joints and electrical connections! This will destroy
track, wiring, motors, etc. Make sure that ALL electrical equipment
used for the pumping system is grounded and on a seperate line
from any train layout stuff. If you are going to run a low-voltage pump
and return system, use a seperate power supply and wiring setup
to keep any chance of leakage current from developing in the train
systems.

[FJ and G]

Ernie (Lionel 2341),

I'm following your diagram and using your method of waterproofing the streambed. Much thanks for that info. Many of my ideas are not original, but are borrowed from great ones like Ernie and others.

Q on distilled water. Can you make your own distilled water by leaving tap water in a bucket for several days to let the chlorine escape? Or, is there another way of making it. Collecting rainwater would do it but there's a lot of pollutants in the air that get into rainwater and in the summer it doesn't rain much here.

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Just to emphasize; there will be no standing or stagnant water. Only when the pump is on will there be water on the layout. Since the surface of the stream will be concrete, the water should evaporate and any that gets under the thin layer of concrete should be stopped by the resin layer. I probably will simply get a fresh bucket of water for each layout session.

I'm going with a 1.25% grade, same as the real Abo Canyon. The grade should, I'm hoping, allow the water to flow down without pooling. I will run some water tests this Saturday to check how the water flows as the stream will meander, the actual grade at streamlevel will probably be 0.75 percent or thereabouts, which may mean that I need to increase the grade slightly.

A short siding at the base of the layout will be used if helper locomotives are needed. The real Abo Canyon used helpers in the days of steam and there was, in fact, a spur at the base of the canyon, but it was a quarry for ballast. I will model half of the spur to be operational for use as a helper area when running my steam trains and the other half of the spur I plan to model as abandoned trackage with some rusted out ballast cars and torn up track at the end (about 3 feet worth of abandoned track).

I'm making wooden brackets for the shelving this weekend which will give me a 3 foot wide shelf layout with a single track running thru it, the river, and mountains built up from industrial sheets of styrofoam that are 2 feet thick.

The backdrop will be acrylics and latex painted on drywall.

In the future, I may replace the wood supports (which attach to the studs using Westcott's method) with metal shelving from Home Depot, in order to add a lower level.

Height of this layout will be about 55 inches.

Turnaround loop will be in an adjacent bedroom (punching thru drywall) with the other turnaround looping around my HVAC, which will additionally contain a helix in the future so that I can run trains around the entire 1,500 sq ft basement along the walls on 6-12 inch shelving.

Thanks everyone for your comments and advice.

[Anonymous]

Dave---I hate to be your Sancho Panza, but I have never seen realistic water --real water--in a model scene. You know you are using FULL SCALE 1:1 water on your 1/48 scale pike. You have not addressed surface tension. Basically, your water will appear to be as viscous as molasses on your pike. Maybe you can put some detergent in it, not too much or you will get suds or maybe you can use alcohol. The brighter side is that your river will be clean and free of mold and algae. Odd-d

[FJ and G]

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As a side benefit to the stream, at the point it empties into the bucket, will be my Beagle's doggy dish and water dish where she can drink from the stream.

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You are all wet, Odd-d. :-)

Seriously, tho, I know what you mean. I hope to avoid the effect you describe by having the water flowing. I may add some alcohol to the water to make "wet" water. Or, I could drink some beers and simply pee into the stream.

[Anonymous]

Welll, Dave, you could hook it up to the regular drain and install a Lionel automatic toilet paper dispenser.......Heck, you could be modern and up to date modelling a POLLUTED river. Let's see, now, some little dead fish....hmmm-mmm this could really be big. Odd-d

[FJ and G]

what a great idea! a dab of motor oil could give a prototypical oil slick, where, upstream, an overturned tank car could be profusely leaking, and with a candle and hidden smoke unit, could be on fire.

As for dead fish, you've just gotten me hungry for some fresh sushi, killed by the chef and sliced and diced in front of you. yummy! Oishi desu ne.

[Anonymous]

Dave, just be glad you are not a Scandinavian. You would be salivating for some pickled herring or smoked chubs.......and putting up with Thor. Odd-d

[FJ and G]

Odd-d,

My new boss is from one of those Scandinavian countries. Eileen Erickson. Sounds Norweigian? Her son is 8 & loves toy trains too.

[Anonymous]

David:

Regarding distilld water:

The traditional way to make distilled water is by boiling it, collecting the steam & condensing it back ino water. Distilled water is pure 100% H20. Distilled water is also an insulator, electrically speaking. It's the salts & metals suspended in tap & salt water that make those forms conductors.

Provided bacteria & critters don't get into your distilled water, you shouldn't get any Legionaire's Disease or any other pathogens on your pike. However, you may want to reconsider placing the bucket near the doggy dish!

You've got lots of good advice in this thread. Use it! :)

Tony

[lionel2341]

Pickled Herring, [:)] yummy, with onions and sour cream even better[:D]

Ernie

[lionelsoni]

Norwegian names generally end with "-sen", Swedish with "-son".

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vitabile

David:

The only contribution that I can make is to suggest that you take the time to waterproof areas adjacent to the stream bed. Water can travel far via capillary action. Take the time to test everything to make sure water isn't getting to unexpected places by traveling through small cracks.

Good luck!

Tony

I had a layout with running water in it , but instead of concrete, I would suggest using a heavy coat of epoxy inside the stream/riverbed , up and over the shoreline. Then put a medium coat of epoxy on the ENTIRE area around your water 12" past the shoreline because splashes can travel farther than you would think !! ALSO, coat the bottom side with epoxy around the drain hole and above where the catch basin will be !!!! GOOD LUCK, THIS IS A SPECTACULAR EFFECT !!!!

[Anonymous]

If you vant to dress up da set alittle, I would not put any Norwegian skows in da vater as dey tend to leek too much. Usually da leeks on dem dere skows vere plugged vit lefse and dat might pollute da vater. Yumpin' yimminy, dont put any pickled herring in dere nedder as the Norvegians will flocking to da vater in droves and dey vould make vun heck of a splash and ruin your train set.

By da vay, some Norwegian names START vit Bjor... too ya know.

Keep up da good vurk! YASUREYOUBETCHA!!!!!!!!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Being from the land of the Vikings, this whole conversation makes me feel right at home. WAIT A MINUTE, I AM RIGHT AT HOME!!!

This kind of fun usually only happens over on the Trains Magazine forum. I'm glad everyone brought his sense of humor. I love to talk trains with the occasional side order of silly. You guys crack me up![swg]

[FJ and G]

MaineCentral (Tony),

Thanks for your tips, fellow "splasher". I've got a giant can of resin that I want to use up so I'll be using that and retreating really fast before the smell catches up to me.

Reg. the inlet, outlet drain area, I have some experience with plumbing my entire basement so I'll be using some of that experience to get what I hope are watertight seals.

The splash effect is right on. Planning to go up the banks with the resin as well, but then add a thin coat of either concrete or leftover thinset or mortar mix, colored and shaped atop the resin so you don't see the shiny stuff. Remember, epoxy and resin is only supposed to show if you want to simulate water; wheras mine is real and when the water is not there it turns into a dry streambed, just like the real deal.

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Thanks for the lesson in Scandinavian. So sen is generally Norweigian and -son is Swedish! I know that Denmark & Iceland and maybe Greenland are part of Scandinavia, but what about Finland? I know they speak a completely different language, Ural-Altaic, I think, which is somewhat related to, of all things, Japanese.

Well, time to get a Swedish meatball breakfast over at Ikea. Too bad Thor doesn't check in here. He's a Norweigian who follows some of the ancient Nordic practices.

[Anonymous]

Hey, Pirschnut, ve danskerne nongang bruge ,s e n' ogsaa. Thor is probably daunted when he see REAL Scandinavians on a thread. He is probably still trying to figure out his Swedish Marx tin. It'll be a while before he can use Norwegian and Danish scale model trains. Vil du har en Carlsberg? Skol. Odd-d