Bob Nelson
The main reason that they are loud was the fact that they used metal gears, and not plastic gears like they use today. You probably could replace the gears with plastic ones, but I'm not sure.
You can add TMCC and Railsounds to the F3s. You can try 3 different TMCC After-market makers, such as TAS Studios, Electric RR, and Digital Dynamics. They all have websites, just Google them.
"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen
The open frame(Pullmor) motors will always growl, although some designs are smoother than others.
This is especially true of the early horizontal motor F-3s.
With that said, however, Frank Timko can replace the horizontal Pullmor motors with modern can motors. This isn't cheap to do, however it's pretty much guaranteed to make them quieter.
Grayson,
You'd be hard pressed to find plastic gears in anything but the very low end trains today. Even moderate priced starter set engines like the Hogwarts Express or Baby Berkshire(Polar Express) have all metal gear trains.
fredswain wrote:I have a pair of Lionel postwar F3's that were my dad's when he was a kid. They still run but are really loud. Not smooth and quiet like my newer Lionel equipment. Is there any way to modernize them such as new quieter, smoother motors? Is there a way to upgrade them to TMCC or the equivalent? I'd like to get them repainted and cleaned up but I'd really like to get them running new and smooth by current standards if possible. Does anyone know how I can go about this?
I cringe at the thought of doing what you want to make them quieter I guess you have tried a drop or two of oil in proper places and lube on the gears . To do what your talking about just about ruins there value. If you want quieter engines go spend your money on newer remkes of them and put them on a shelf as display as you probally will regret it later down the road when there worth about $800.00 if left alone but now only worth $75.00 because of what you have done.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
Sorry but I have to agree with RT, but for the sentimental value. For me, the value is in your Dad's trains as you received them, unrestored. I went through a period a couple of months ago when it was bothering me that much of my 49-57 year old stuff wasn't a C7 in appearance. So many of the guys have posted their engine and car restorations, and they came out stellar.
I considered repainting my 242X passenger cars, but now I'm glad I didn't. Now I am obsessing over whether to even touch them up. During this whole time I worked on making the pieces as clean an example without modification, restoration, or repainting. There are good threads in this Forum dedicated to cleaning and polishing existing paint, as well as touch up.
Imagine my reaction when viewing photos in this forum and I see guys take newer stuff and deliberately weathering it, engines and cars. And I like it too! Isn't that what real life engines and cars look like?
As for F3s, that would be one of my next acquisitions along with a Postwar Berk (like so many of us). So I've been following the dual motored War Bonnet Santa Fe 2343s on ebay. There's a lot of them available, but so many are lucky to show a C6. The nice ones are PRICY! Which gets me to thinking a Williams repro when my perfectionist self takes over.
All this is driving me nuts. I like it all. But I can't have it all.
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
fredswain,
I am with RT and Jack. I would strongly advise not to modify the F3s. If you'd like a modern version of them, MTH did a great job of reproducing the 2343 in 2006. It is an A-B-A set and it has dual can motors with flywheels, a fan driven smoke unit, and Protosound 2.0. As Jack mentioned nice original diesels are getting harder to find. I was going to convert a 1946 2020 from from the lamp type smoke unit to the heater type. I found most of the parts from the 671S conversion kit, but I decided not to do the conversion. I figured that it has spent its 62 years this way, and that is the way it should remain.
I understand that there's value of them that is changed if they are altered. They aren't mint. The paint is rubbing off a bit in places and it does "growl". These are the Western Pacific A-A units. I don't have the B. I'm not just trying to get them quiet just to box back up. I fully intend to run them. My future layout plans involve a 3 rail layout over a 3 car garage. That'll be a while but I'm drawing it up. I intend to run all of them. I also have a set of black Erie units which I think are PA's but I'm not sure. They look like they are smaller in 1/55 scale or so. They too aren't perfect by any means. All still work just fine.
I want them to look and run well. It's not about monetary value for me as I have no intention of getting rid of them. I intend to use them. I'd like for my dad to come over and see his trains running like new or better. That's why he gave them to me. To run them. Yes he's still around and hopefully will be for a long time yet.
Then again, I could always just keep them as display items next to the roundhouse. We'll see. I really wanted to have them pulling the 4 metal Lionel Passenger cars around. They are from the 50's and look fairly nice. That's what these engines always pulled and it's a really nice looking set. Of course I still can pull them around. It's just very loud. Oh well. Maybe that's the charm of them.
The old Lionel system that my dad had was once a Younkers department store Christmas Window display in their storefront in downtown Des Moines. It was a neat layout complete with a working freeway in which cars moved on a string line hidden underneath the roadway. It was a one of a kind. It's not complicated or realistic by modern standards but very neat for the 50's. I still have that. The table itself has been long gone for decades now but everything that went with it or ran on it is still here. I need to figure out how the old automatic station worked. It automatically threw switches on the layout and I'm clueless as to how it worked. Then again I haven't really looked into it much either. My intention is to build a modern layout with realistic scenery elements as I've done on my current N scale layout but incorporate many of my dad's old elements into the new system. I even want to build a scale model of the house he grew up in as I know where it is and can easily copy it. He's not gone but I'd like to honor him with it all anyways. It would be a great excuse to have him come over and play too!
fredswain wrote: ......... I also have a set of black Erie units which I think are PA's but I'm not sure. They look like they are smaller in 1/55 scale or so. They too aren't perfect by any means. All still work just fine.
......... I also have a set of black Erie units which I think are PA's but I'm not sure. They look like they are smaller in 1/55 scale or so. They too aren't perfect by any means. All still work just fine.
Check out the number boards on engine fronts. 2032 with two thin yellow stripes over a black shell would be Erie FA AlCos from 1952-1954, I believe. O27. Smaller than the F3s.
Jack
I'm with the other guys on this one. The beauty of those post war F3's or any post war item for that matter is what they envoke when you run them. For most, they remind you of good things. I'm sure your Dad will be extremely happy to see them running around in whatever cosmetic condition they are in. He'd be thrilled that you kept such good care of them that after all this time they run exactly as they did when he brought them home to you.
I can tell you from experience. Although not new to post war trains, I am somewhat new to the hobby itself. I had 2 sets given to me by my Uncle (my father's youngest brother, now deceased) that my Mom and Dad bought for him in the early 50's. I still have them in the same used and played with condition they were in when I put them away.Well, they used to go up every holiday season and come down in January. Then for 25 years they sat in boxes until Christmas 2006 when my son asked me to set them up and they haven't come down since. Besides my own personal enjoyment I can still remember the first time my parents came to visit after they went up in 2006. I could tell that they both were thrilled. They went on and on about them for hours. They couldn't get over how they still ran as they did so long ago. I told them about all of the new technology in the new stuff and evertime they still want to hear that air whistle, smell the smoke, see the Gateman come out of his shack... BTW, I run every piece I have(not at the same time of course). Nothing sits on a shelf.
I think you get my drift.
Mike
like ezmike says, the family and friends, especially Dad, will sit there stunned and speechless, watching a memory from over a half century and two generations ago, resurrected and cared for. They'll be in the total admiration mode, obsessing in amazement that the items look and run "that good," while you and I are obsessing over the "played with" condition.
Saw a TV special on one of Jay Leno's recent Duesenberg finds, and he worried not a lick that he's now showing an unrestored, running sample..... and has absolutely no intention of restoring it either.
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, you and Dad, not the rest of us. I wouldn't trade a restoration of an heirloom for any of that. Once restored, it isn't the same. Leave the stuff cosmetically alone and buy a better example if you wish.
You never mentioned the model numbers; but, if they're Western Pacific, they should be either the 2345 made in 1952 or the 2355 from 1953. These both predate both the vertical motor and the nylon idler gear. So they can be expected to be as noisy as any Lionel F3 ever was and to have been that way when new. Now, whether they are actually noisier than they should be is impossible for us to say. I think your best resource for determining that is your father. Run them for him and get his opinion as to whether they have gotten noisier with age.
If you really want your F3s to be quiet, I would recommend simply buying a vertical-motor set (like a 2383) and swapping the shells. You will probably have to make some small adjustment to the attachment at the rear of the shells, since Lionel did that differently over the years. And the truck sideframes will be black instead of silver; but they're easy to repaint.
The Eries are undoubtedly Alcos and are undersized.
What's not to like about the 'growl' of early F3s? To me they really wouldn't be what they are without it.
I have a 2343 (SF)and a 2344 (NYC), which, in my case at least, each have a distinctively different growl: the SF sounding somewhat smoother, while the NYC has a darker, raspier growl. No other Lionel diesels I have sound anything like these two. I do wonder whether the sound if my SF vs my NYC is typical of the models, or as is more likely, whether it's just individual variation?
I'd like to hear about that from other F3 owners.
runtime
My 1950s Southern Lionel #2333 F3s are quite nostalgic. They sound like Grandpa's old McCormick-Deering corn binder only on a scale basis much louder.
The Timko can motor drive is retro fit and can be installed without altering the origional truck frames or chassis leaving you with the option of reverting the engine back to its origional drive in the future. I can't get his site to work but he did or does sell the kit outright for around $120 if I remember correctly.
The horizontal drive is a tad noisy. A good thorough cleaning and lubrication may help. Sometimes you will find a tapered worm bushing in the power trucks was installed in the wrong position at one point in time causing the engine to run sluggishly and grind. This needs to be addressed whether you switch to can motors or not.
Western Pacifics are pretty sought after. Junkers can command 500 bucks. If the shells aren't real bad and the nose decals are mostly there, you could probably sell them for much more than what repros would cost such as Lionel PWC Western Pacifics with command control and sounds.
n1vets.......that is what is great about the debate over a shell paint restoration and a mechanical maintenance/cleaning vs. a simple shell paint cleaning and a mechanical maintenance/cleaning. Like fred, a lot of us have no intention of ever selling our older stuff, so what a repainting will do to the $ value of the train is of no consequence.
Fred's Dad will be awestruck seeing his old trains back in action, repainted or not.
My point is that for some, the repaint part of the equation is important because we all want our stuff to look as good as we can, and the play wear appearance grinds on us.
However.....a guy I met down at the local train shop put the opposite spin on this discussion while I was waiting in line to pick up an engine I had seviced. He observed that the pieces will be up and running either way. But he said I must decide if there is any (nostalgic) value to me staring at that bent 2046 cab and the other (mine and my Dad's) play wear accumulated over 5+ decades. His take was that every scar has a great story and fond memories behind it. Once the damaged paint/scar is removed, part of the great stories and fond memories fade with it. You can't go back after you repaint.
That's why some of us have resisted the perfection in favor of the memories. If this was a piece I picked up recently at a show or auction and it showed too much play wear, I'd repaint it with little thought.
Both sides are right because we both gain one thing at the sacrifice of another.
The paint is rubbing through in places on the roof. However it's not from use. For the most part he didn't run them a whole lot. The long train and passenger cars looked wrong on a 5' X 9" O-31 layout. The paint rubbing off is from them being wrapped up in newspaper and then being moved around from storage to storage area over the course of 30 years.
I'd ultimately like to see them running again looking brand new which would mean a repaint or at the very least some good airbrush touchups. They still do run fine but I thought it would be cool to keep them quiet and smooth. I have no intention of weathering them at all. I just want them to look shiny and new and run smooth. My dad had commented once that he'd never weather any of this trains. He loved them shiny and new. That's how I'd like him to see his engines again but I'd also like to them to be smooth running too.
It's not a monetary value thing for me. I don't want to get rid of them and he never had any intention of getting rid of them. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be happy with me if I did. Sure they have value as is and it's probably more than if they were retouched. However the original intention was for them to be used and enjoyed and frankly I'd enjoy seeing them looking new running around the room rather than looking old, used, and sitting on a shelf somewhere. That's fine for some but I've always believed that you own things to enjoy them. If I wanted stationary models, I'd go buy stationary models. We'll see. I haven't gotten that far yet. The new layout is a ways off as there are too many other things to do on the house first.
If the paint is rubbed off in a few spots. A touch up would be more appropriate. Charles Wood sells touch up paint that match Lionel colors. Seriously, a complete dissasembly, cleaning, and relube would get your WP's running much better.
For a total repaint, I would get some beat up 2343 or 2353 ATSF shells off ebay and paint those before I would begin to think of repainting origional WP's. You can buy beat up ATSF shells on ebay all day for dirt cheap.
Who says you can't have it both ways? Best of both worlds. I've been looking at F3s for a while and there certainly is a lot of beat up ones for short money.
The 1953 Western Pacific 2355. It a extremely rare engine, since it was only made only 1 year. It is as rare as the 2341 Jersey Central, one of the most sought-after engines of the postwar era.
If its in the condition you state, you can get up to $1200 for your engine...
I feel the need to jump in here with an opinion. Keep them original; apart from minor cleaning and lubrication, leave them alone.
I have been an antiques dealer for the past 21 years (history teacher before that) specializing in American folk art, antique and modern firearms, and historic militaria. I even buy and sell trains on occasion. Over the years I have seen countless historic and collectible items stripped of value because they were altered by someone who thought they were improving or updating them. I know these locomotives are very special to you, and you don't plan on ever selling them (never say never), but if some day you DO sell them, they will achieve their maximum value if they are left as original as possible. If you pass them along to your children, they will be worth much more if left "as Is".
If I were in your situation I would treat those post war F3's as display items which should be run sparingly just to keep them in running order. For daily runners, I would suggest looking for modern production, or Lionel MPC locomotives that you can customize. I have found MPC items very cheap on ebay and at train shows.
SCD wrote: I feel the need to jump in here with an opinion. Keep them original; apart from minor cleaning and lubrication, leave them alone. I have been an antiques dealer for the past 21 years (history teacher before that) specializing in American folk art, antique and modern firearms, and historic militaria. I even buy and sell trains on occasion. Over the years I have seen countless historic and collectible items stripped of value because they were altered by someone who thought they were improving or updating them. I know these locomotives are very special to you, and you don't plan on ever selling them (never say never), but if some day you DO sell them, they will achieve their maximum value if they are left as original as possible. If you pass them along to your children, they will be worth much more if left "as Is".If I were in your situation I would treat those post war F3's as display items which should be run sparingly just to keep them in running order. For daily runners, I would suggest looking for modern production, or Lionel MPC locomotives that you can customize. I have found MPC items very cheap on ebay and at train shows.
You have some valid points for some of us, but you have placed most of your toy train value on a buy/sell/collect bias and too little value on the run/fun/share/remember factor. Put a dollar value on the latter and you might find that there is more value in running than shelving the unit, for his Dad and for him. How much value will you put on the Dad factor? Hmmmm, no scratches but fun with Dad and my kids.
A friend of mine drives a 1966 Jaguar XKE 4.2 Coupe on Spring/Summer/Fall weekends, on local road trips, to cruise nights, and on vacations with his wife, about 3,000 miles a year. Enters car in shows and never finishes better than 3rd in class against the guys who trailer their cars to/from the venue, vehicles which get wet only when washing and see the speedo change .1 miles a year. The car is his hobby, and he does most of the work himself. He has put serious time and expense into two restorations, not to mention annual things. No technical improvements. As close to original as available parts allow.
From the time he bought the car until he's 85 and can't drive, or he is about to draw his last breath, he has had and will have something money can't buy. Decades of fun and fond memories. Then the kids will do what they will with the car. He won't care one way or another, he got his "money's" worth 100 times over.
His take is that the car owes him nothing, that it gives more than takes.
RockIsland52 wrote: SCD wrote: I feel the need to jump in here with an opinion. Keep them original; apart from minor cleaning and lubrication, leave them alone. I have been an antiques dealer for the past 21 years (history teacher before that) specializing in American folk art, antique and modern firearms, and historic militaria. I even buy and sell trains on occasion. Over the years I have seen countless historic and collectible items stripped of value because they were altered by someone who thought they were improving or updating them. I know these locomotives are very special to you, and you don't plan on ever selling them (never say never), but if some day you DO sell them, they will achieve their maximum value if they are left as original as possible. If you pass them along to your children, they will be worth much more if left "as Is".If I were in your situation I would treat those post war F3's as display items which should be run sparingly just to keep them in running order. For daily runners, I would suggest looking for modern production, or Lionel MPC locomotives that you can customize. I have found MPC items very cheap on ebay and at train shows. You have some valid points for some of us, but you have placed most of your toy train value on a buy/sell/collect bias and too little value on the run/fun/share/remember factor. Put a dollar value on the latter and you might find that there is more value in running than shelving the unit, for his Dad and for him. How much value will you put on the Dad factor? Hmmmm, no scratches but fun with Dad and my kid.
You have some valid points for some of us, but you have placed most of your toy train value on a buy/sell/collect bias and too little value on the run/fun/share/remember factor. Put a dollar value on the latter and you might find that there is more value in running than shelving the unit, for his Dad and for him. How much value will you put on the Dad factor? Hmmmm, no scratches but fun with Dad and my kid.
I don't see the situation as a conflict between a "buy/sell/collect" philosophy and a "run/fun/share/remember" philosophy. He can certainly run his postwar F3s whenever he wants, enjoy doing so with his father, and still retain the integrity of the original condition of his locomotives. Running those locomotives with his father does not require they be refinished or altered from their original condition.
I posted my comments because it has been my experience that good people often unknowingly diminish the value of objects by altering the original states of those objects, and it would be irresponsible to not share this information with the F3 owner. Ultimately the decision is his, but the value of participating in a forum like this is that whatever decision he makes will be the right one for him because he will have made an informed decision knowing the pros and cons of other views.
When I sold my late father's train collection for my mother, condition was an issue in almost every transaction, even the presence and condition of the boxes. In my own collecting, I have trains in varying states of condition, some that I consider daily runners, and others that are displayed on my shelves and run only rarely. I fully enjoy the buy/sell/collect/run/fun/share/remember factors in equal measure.
SCD....we are in agreement. Your advice is absolutely correct from one vantage point, and you can't unpaint an original. I haven't repainted any on my postwar stuff, but for a different reason. Behind every scratch there is a wonderful story and memory (of stupidity). So I decided to live with the imperfections (which bug me). If I decide to repaint my stuff, I'll change my story and argue the other side, claiming that "I have seen the light."
RockIsland52 wrote: If I decide to repaint my stuff, I'll change my story and argue the other side, claiming that "I have seen the light." Jack
LOL. Hard to argue with that!
I spoke to my dad about the collector value of them and with the apparent rarity of them he is now inclined to keep them original now. Even though I have them, they will always be his. I guess I'll go about cleaning them thoroughly, lubing them, and making sure they run well but aside from that we'll just leave them stock. I probably just clean up the whole passenger set and build a display for them over the set somewhere.
He is now asking if we can find reproductions to run instead. He'd like to see the train run around again but we are both now thinking that maybe keeping them original is what is best.
I have everything from his original set in boxes and know where it all is. All of it is from around 1953 or so. It would be interesting to see what it's all worth. His original station has an interesting feature in it that lets it automatically throw switches on the layout. I have no idea how that worked or was wired up. It would be neat to know that too.
I will be in Iowa next month and am going to take his Erie units and his steam engine to Trainland while I'm there to get cleaned up and repaired. They don't run anymore. Only the F units do.
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