I just bought a buncnh of old am flyer from someone. Included was a steam engine #312 and a gp-7 # 370. When I put the 312 on the track I am getting a humming noise from the tender, I traced the wires out of the tender so I checked them with a voltage meter and they are giving juice to the loco, my thought was that the motor wasnt getting any power. as I was touching the wires leading into the back of the loco I would frequently get a small spark and the train would start moving for a split section but I cant figure out what it is that I touched to make that happen, hopefully someone knowing their stuff could school me on this.
On the 370 diesel switcher, when power is applied the lights work and the reversing unit clicks as I believe it should but once again im not getting any motor movement. These engines are I believe from the 50's and I dont know how long they been in storage, could it be dirty connections somewhere? anyway I am really stuck and I cant seam to find much help online. If someone could helkp me troubleshoot I would really apreciate it, even if someone knows of REALLY GOOD LINK. Thank you
Stevin
Of the "this train doesn't work" scenarios I've had with just a humming unit the e unit usually needs attention. First find out if the trouble is in the loco or the tender. This is my usual sequence of events on the 312 and similar locos
This gets most of the locos running. Don't forget to add smoke fluid to the unit before running it very much because you can quickly burn up a good smoke wick running the loco with a dry wick
Jim
I was playing with tdrum and the fingers touching the drum, I noticed that the fingers in some spowerent touching the drum due to them be a little bent. I bent them so they now touch and then I noticed when the top 2 fingers touched eachother before touching the drum, the loco would run in forward. but I dont believe the drum is rotating in sync because I have to turn power on nd off like 4 to five times for the loco to get back into forward and start running. butI still cant get a reverse out of it. Do you have any ways that I could fix that because when it warmed up in reverse it ran very strong and the smoke stack was amazing, it pumpeed out alot of smoke and I didnt even refill it. Could I use lionel smoke fluid in the af or use seuthe fluid?
Now as for the 370 switching diesel, the lights work and the drum seams to rotate freely, after inspecting the motor a little closer I noticed that one side of the motor brushes is missing a brush completedly, would this stop the motor from turning at all? If so what could I use as a substitute brush.? You have been very helpful, do you know of any online tuturials or a site wheer I could get help like this?
Thank you.
The fingers should touch the drum, not each other. If the coil is cycling, (clicking) That is good. You've got power to the coil, now you have to correct the mechanical problem of the mechanism sticking. You have the most common AF failure. A sticking eunit. Clean the unit with electrical cleaner, paying particular attention to the moving or what is suppose to be moving parts. As you cycle the power, watch the drum and see if it moves. It should rotate a bit with each power cycle. See if the pawl is releasing or sticking in the up position. If so this is where you can slightly bend the pawl or debur the eunit sideframe where the pawl may of worn a notch. It does not take much to make it stick or to free it up. Usually a good cleaning is all it needs to loosen it up.
The 372 as far as that goes needs the brushes to work. The brushes are the sliding electrical contact to the armature (the part that goes around)
If I were you, I would order a set of brushes and springs for both engines, a set of eunit fingers and some smoke fluid from RFGCO or Portlines Hobbies. Should come to about $15. There is a lot of debate over which smoke fluid works best, but they all work.
I hope this helps.
The 312 is one of my favorite engines
The old AF can really SMOKE
The reversing sequence goes forward neutral reverse neutral, so if a set of fingers was not working it would just cycle through the four steps. Look closely at the end of the fingers they should look like a small shepards crook or staff. Sometimes they get worn and do not make contact to the drum.
The fingers are easy to replace. Solder them before you put them on the eunit body.
I did what you said by attactching the 2 middle connections and applying a wire each to the right and left terminal and the engine started running great but when I reverse the wires shouldnt they move in the opistite direction, for reverse. I have a feeling that the fingers are the main problem. what a great smoker this engine is, im am so debating on keeping it as it doesnt look that awkward with my o scale stuff., thank you for all your help and any more that you could offer. A PICTURE OF A CORRECT REVERSING UNIT WOULD BE GREAT.
I would say all your problems are with the fingers now the drum is turning. The fingers are delicate and if they put too much pressure on the drum it can prevent the drum from rotating as it should. On all the eunits I've messed with, the fingers and wiring is the only things I've had to replace. And they are easy. Just make sure you put the correct set on top andon front, notice the position one is offset to one side and the other is centered.
I'll try and get some pictures
Bob Nelson
I've never tried it but after thinking about it, it probably would not matter
Sturgeon-Phish Of the "this train doesn't work" scenarios I've had with just a humming unit the e unit usually needs attention. First find out if the trouble is in the loco or the tender. This is my usual sequence of events on the 312 and similar locos Separate the loco from the tender. There should be a jack panel between the two and you can disconnect them. Turn the loco over and role armature with your finger. It should rotate freely and the wheels and linkage should move. If they do not i. check for binding in the linkage ii. Remove the lower grease plate and clean out the old dried up grease around the gears. If they do move direct wire the loco by: i. Put a jumper between the center two sockets in the jack panel ii. Put a lead in the sockets on the extreme left and right socket in the jack panel iii. With test leads attach a variable voltage from your transformer to the leads inserted into the jack panel iv. The loco should run if the wiring is OK; if not start investigating the wiring If the loco now runs finish cleaning the old grease and re-lube using just a little grease and oil and now focus on the tender Take the tender shell off the frame Apply low voltage ~ 8v to the tender and watch the reversing drum; it should rotate with each cycling of power If all it does is hum i. Find the coil in the reversing mechanism (it will be towards the back of the unit) and manually cycle the drum by pressing and releasing the little plate under the coil. This should rotate the drum. Clean the moving parts with an electrical cleaner that is plastic compatible. Radio shack has a good product as well as CRC 7-36 Pay particular attention to where the e-unit pawl goes through the side frame of the unit. Sometimes they with stick where the throwing of the pawl actually makes an indentation in the frame. This can be fixed by: i. Give the end of the pawl a slight bend down; be VERY careful as to not break it. ii. Clean up the indentation with a jewelers file Once you get the unit to rotate when cycling power you should be able to get power to the loco. If not Inspect for and fix clean or replace as needed loose connections worn fingers dirty drum contact dirty pick up wheels This gets most of the locos running. Don't forget to add smoke fluid to the unit before running it very much because you can quickly burn up a good smoke wick running the loco with a dry wick Jim
Hi Guys,
I am a carpetbagger from the HO side of these forums but before you stop reading in disgust, let me quickly point out that as a kid my first love was S-scale.
I still have my first complete American Flyer set, including engine, freight cars, track, transformer and a pair of switches. That is the good news. The bad news is that I have not run the engine in at least 35 years and, like the original author of this thread, "this train doesn't work".
The engine in question is an American Flyer K5 Pacific PRR 4-6-2 #312.
Having already attempted to research the repair of an American Flyer steam engine on several web sites, I came across this thread and Jim's highly knowledgeable response on testing the motor and wiring.
I have started to disassemble and test the engine and tender, but norhting conclusive has emerged yet.
My question at this point relates to the removal of the metal engine shell (the boiler) from the frame. It appears that there are two screws on the underside that should be removed plus two screws on each side of the boiler where linkage from the driver wheels is connected. Also, It looks like I need to remove the two handrails at the front of the boiler. Before I plunge into this disassembly, does this seem to be the right procedure?
Rich
Alton Junction
You do not need to remove the rear mount tabs. Before you remove the shell ensure the linkage is not binding by rotating the motor with your finger.
Steamer Shell removal
1. Unplug the tender from the loco.
2. Remove the smoke tube from inside the smoke stack. Use a small flat screwdriver as there is a slot in the top of the tube
3. Remove the two screws by the front set of wheels that hold the chassis to the shell.
4. Remove the small screw that holds the headlamp bracket to the shell
5. Fish the lightbulb holder from it’s position
6. Sketch or take a picture of the linkage arrangement then remove the side linkage from the drive wheels with a ¼” wrench
7. Remove the two screws that hold the jack panel (where the tender plugs in) to the shell
8. Holding the shell push the chassis forward about 3/16”, enough for the chassis to clear the rear mounting tabs.
9. Once the chassis is clear of the rear tabs, lift slightly and pull to the rear of the loco and the chassis should pull out.
10. Replacement is in the reverse order.
Sturgeon-Phish You do not need to remove the rear mount tabs. Before you remove the shell ensure the linkage is not binding by rotating the motor with your finger. Steamer Shell removal 1. Unplug the tender from the loco. 2. Remove the smoke tube from inside the smoke stack. Use a small flat screwdriver as there is a slot in the top of the tube 3. Remove the two screws by the front set of wheels that hold the chassis to the shell. 4. Remove the small screw that holds the headlamp bracket to the shell 5. Fish the lightbulb holder from it’s position 6. Sketch or take a picture of the linkage arrangement then remove the side linkage from the drive wheels with a ¼” wrench 7. Remove the two screws that hold the jack panel (where the tender plugs in) to the shell 8. Holding the shell push the chassis forward about 3/16”, enough for the chassis to clear the rear mounting tabs. 9. Once the chassis is clear of the rear tabs, lift slightly and pull to the rear of the loco and the chassis should pull out. 10. Replacement is in the reverse order.
Jim,
Thanks a bunch. I followed your instructions and successfully removed the shell from the chassis.
Now, I have been reading an earlier response of yours in this thread about testing the wiring.
You say that if the wheels and linkage rotate freely, which they do, then direct wire the loco by putting a jumper between the center two sockets in the jack panel and putting a lead in the sockets on the extreme left and right socket in the jack panel. With test leads attach a variable voltage from a transformer to the leads inserted into the jack panel.
I have a question about this. Two wires go from the jack panel to the lights, while the other two wires from the jack panel connect to the motor. Which two wires on the jack panel should be jumpered and which two wires on the jack panel should connect to the leads from the transformer?
Thanks.
Rich,
Check the wiring against the 4 wire diagram at this link.
http://www.portlines.com/portlinesclinic10.htm
green97probe Rich, Check the wiring against the 4 wire diagram at this link. http://www.portlines.com/portlinesclinic10.htm
Thanks for that link. My wiring is identical to the first diagram, the 4-wire example.
Do I place the two transformer leads on the two points on the jack panel where the wires run to the motor? What about the two points on the jack panel where the wires run to the lights?
I am not sure and I don't want to screw things up.
richhotrain green97probe Rich, Check the wiring against the 4 wire diagram at this link. http://www.portlines.com/portlinesclinic10.htm Jim, Thanks for that link. My wiring is identical to the first diagram, the 4-wire example. Do I place the two transformer leads on the two points on the jack panel where the wires run to the motor? What about the two points on the jack panel where the wires run to the lights? I am not sure and I don't want to screw things up. Thanks. Rich
Hey Guys,
After posting my response a few minutes ago and waiting to hear back, my wife strolled over to my temporary work bench on the kitchen table and asked what I was doing. I got her involved and she studied the wiring diagrams for a minute and then suggested that I jumper those center two jack panel connections and run wires from the transformer to the other two jack panel connections, just as had been suggested by Sturgeon-Phish.
Voila ! For the first time in 35 years, my beloved 4-6-2 moved. *** near ran right off the table. As soon as I recover from my state of shock, I will continue to rehab this little sucker.
Just thought that I would keep you all posted.
P.S. I am sure that I will be back with more questions.
richhotrain richhotrain green97probe Rich, Check the wiring against the 4 wire diagram at this link. http://www.portlines.com/portlinesclinic10.htm Jim, Thanks for that link. My wiring is identical to the first diagram, the 4-wire example. Do I place the two transformer leads on the two points on the jack panel where the wires run to the motor? What about the two points on the jack panel where the wires run to the lights? I am not sure and I don't want to screw things up. Thanks. Rich Hey Guys, After posting my response a few minutes ago and waiting to hear back, my wife strolled over to my temporary work bench on the kitchen table and asked what I was doing. I got her involved and she studied the wiring diagrams for a minute and then suggested that I jumper those center two jack panel connections and run wires from the transformer to the other two jack panel connections, just as had been suggested by Sturgeon-Phish. Voila ! For the first time in 35 years, my beloved 4-6-2 moved. *** near ran right off the table. As soon as I recover from my state of shock, I will continue to rehab this little sucker. Just thought that I would keep you all posted. Thanks. Rich P.S. I am sure that I will be back with more questions.
Bear with me in this continuing saga.
I went back and re-read Sturgeon-Phoebe's instructions found earlier in this thread about testing the wiring in the tender. He says to apply power from the transformer.
My question is: how to do this? Do I run wires from the transformer to the outer leads on the other end of the jack panel going to the tender? And, if so, do I jumper the middle two leads on the jack panel, just like I did when I tested the engine?
Looking forward to hearing back from one of you experts. I feel like a kid again.
Touch the wires to the trucks on the tender.
Jim neat videos!
Way to go!
You are on the right track For the loco you jumper the two center posts and apply voltage to the outer posts. As far as applying voltage to the tender, the most direct path is to apply voltage to the rivets where the truck comes through the tender chassis and the wires to the e-unit are soldered. Once you apply voltage to the tender the coil in the e-unit should engage. If not make sure the lock out lever is swung out of the way, if it still does not work take some contact cleaner and spray the coil and drum unit then work the e-unit with your finger where the lock out lever swings. Try applying current again.
Sturgeon-Phish Way to go! You are on the right track For the loco you jumper the two center posts and apply voltage to the outer posts. As far as applying voltage to the tender, the most direct path is to apply voltage to the rivets where the truck comes through the tender chassis and the wires to the e-unit are soldered. Once you apply voltage to the tender the coil in the e-unit should engage. If not make sure the lock out lever is swung out of the way, if it still does not work take some contact cleaner and spray the coil and drum unit then work the e-unit with your finger where the lock out lever swings. Try applying current again. Jim
Let me try to understand the operation of the tender mechanism a little better.
Once I turn up the transformer and apply power, should the drum rotate continuously? In my case, the drum rotates only once each time I apply power, turn it off, and then apply power again. It does not rotate continuously.
It should only rotate once per cycle as you described.
As the drum rotates current will be dristributed to different finger contacts on the drum. This allows a forward neutral reverse neutral cycle. A common malfunction in the reversing mechanism is the pawl sticking not catching the gear on the end of the drum making it rotate in the direction cycles.
Sturgeon-Phish As the drum rotates current will be dristributed to different finger contacts on the drum. This allows a forward neutral reverse neutral cycle. A common malfunction in the reversing mechanism is the pawl sticking not catching the gear on the end of the drum making it rotate in the direction cycles. Jim
I was just about to post my latest findings when I read your most recent comments.
What you described is exactly what is happening in my situation. The pawl is sticking and not catching the gear on the end of the drum because it hangs up and I have to manually reset it each time before I apply power. Is the fixable or would I be better off replacing the entire reversing mechanism?
I am also trying to determine whether power is reaching the jack panel connections because I cannot get the engine to move when the tender is connected, although the engine works fine when I apply power directly to the jack panel on the outer connections and jumper the inside connections.
When I apply power to the tender from the transformer at the trucks, I am using a test lamp to verify power at other locations in the tender. For example, I get the test lamp to light when I put a clip on the jack panel lead where the wire comes from the front truck of the tender and the other clip is placed on the upper contact where the wire is soldered from the rear truck. However, I cannot get the test lamp to light when I put a clip on the jack panel lead where the wire comes from the front truck of the tender and then place the other clip on any of the other jack panel leads. If this is a correct procedure, it seems that I cannot complete the circuit on the jack panel because I cannot get power there from the rear truck. I hope that all makes sense.
I am so grateful for all of the help that I am getting from you guys.
The sticking pawl is fixable. First try cleaning it, then lubing it. CRC-5-56 or similar contact cleaner and a flux brush will do a good job of cleaning. If still sticking make sure there is not a burr or notch worn into the E-unit frame where the little brass “L” shaped piece makes contact, if there is use a small file to smooth the edge. Sometimes as a last resort, ever so gently bend the brass “L” shaped part so less surface area is coming in contact with the e-unit frame.
I’ve made a loco jack panel jumper, but I’ve not made the corresponding piece to test the tender. To this point I use a known working loco for tender testing.
Once the e-unit is cycling, if the current is not getting to the loco, first look at the fingers on the e-unit where they contact the drum. It should be a sliding contact configuration. All four fingers must make contact with the drum. From there on out it is wire conductors and just do a continuity check for a break in the wires to the jack panel.
Sturgeon-Phish The sticking pawl is fixable. First try cleaning it, then lubing it. CRC-5-56 or similar contact cleaner and a flux brush will do a good job of cleaning. If still sticking make sure there is not a burr or notch worn into the E-unit frame where the little brass “L” shaped piece makes contact, if there is use a small file to smooth the edge. Sometimes as a last resort, ever so gently bend the brass “L” shaped part so less surface area is coming in contact with the e-unit frame. I’ve made a loco jack panel jumper, but I’ve not made the corresponding piece to test the tender. To this point I use a known working loco for tender testing. Once the e-unit is cycling, if the current is not getting to the loco, first look at the fingers on the e-unit where they contact the drum. It should be a sliding contact configuration. All four fingers must make contact with the drum. From there on out it is wire conductors and just do a continuity check for a break in the wires to the jack panel.
U da man !
I went over to Radio Shack and bought a spray can of Radio Shack Control/Contact Cleaner and Lubricant. I sprayed it on the drum and fingers and used a flux brush to move it around. That not only cleaned the fingers and drum but also freed up the pawl.
The connections to the jack panel on the tender side are a little intermittent so I need to work up a new set of wires but, hey, who is complaining,this little guy is moving quite well.
I will continue to report back as I get the engine and tender back together and the smoke unit working.
Before you replace the harness from the reversing unit to the plug, use a soldering iron to heat the end of each pin on the plug. Sometimes reflowing the solder in each pin like that takes care of the problem.
green97probe Rich, Before you replace the harness from the reversing unit to the plug, use a soldering iron to heat the end of each pin on the plug. Sometimes reflowing the solder in each pin like that takes care of the problem.
I liked your idea about heating the end of each pin, so I tried it. At first, I thought it would work but the contact is just too intermittent. I even tried a drop of solder on the wire end of each pin on the back side of the jack panel, but still intermittent.
I am afraid that I will have to rewire the harness. I probably have to order a new jack panel. Would you agree? Or, is the old jack panel salvageable? If I order a new jack panel, does it come with wires attached or is it just the bare jack panel. If I have to add the wires, how do you do that best? On the original jack panel, I see no signs of solder. How did they go about attaching the wires to the jack panel on the tender side?
I have always been able to reuse the original plug provided that the pins aren't loose. As long as the jack panel isn't cracked or the sockets deformed, it can be reused as well. The wires are just soldered inside the pins on the plug. Just heat the pins as I described before and the wires will pull out. After the old wires are removed, I fill the inside of the pin with solder. Then, I tin the wire ends on the new harness. After that, just heat the solder inside the pin ans put the wire in place. Portlines sell a very nice repro 12" long harness that has super flex wire in a cloth sheath that looks like the original.
Do just as Jim says. Do not cut corners and use regular wire. The superflex wire is the best to use. If you use a stiffer wire it creates a bind between the tender and loco. To keep things straight, remove a wire solder a new on in then go on to the next.
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