Lionel TMCC = DCC?

[Dannyboy6]

As for Lionel getting sued.....They are on somewhat friendly terms.... O Guage Railroading Magazien #235 - APR/MAY 2009 Cover Story Breaking News About Lionel and MTH! Editor-in-Chief Allan Miller and Special Projects Editor Ed Boyle bring you news of the new Lionel Corporation, a working alliance between Lionel and MTH Electric Trains. Thanks for all the commentary in DCC/Legacy compatibility. My dealer said to just control it with the transformer [on the cheap end] and gut it and put a TMCC board in it [on the high end]. I'm sure that he knows I'll go for the high end....I purchased Legacy and run all Lionel after all....$$ Cheers Guys!

[simon1966]

Interesting discussion.  If you want to witness a flare up, just hop over to the DCC section of the Model Railroad forum and just mention MTH DCS as an alternative to DCC.  This usually results in some seriously -ve comments.

 

[Doofus]

"Since the newer Lionel Legacy locos will have functions not accessible by the DCS system, this is becoming a moot point, since Lionel has responded to MTH's refusal to allow interoperability by refusing to allow  MTH to access new Legacy features with their DCS handheld."

Mike Wolf has not sued Lionel over this yet? 

[runtime]

I'll second the WOWs....

Neil and Don, do either of you have any other disclosures to make regarding your alllegience (wish I could spell) to DCS or TMCC/Legacy, or are you just very "enthusiastic"?

I read the whole thread as I had just been wondering, while finally starting on some layout expansion, for my conventional Postwar Lionel RR, whether I should investigate the possibility of  upgrading the engines for remote wireless operation using one of the two systems.

First of all I don't know if it can be done (and later undone if desired), particularly with PW steamers, which have little spare room inside. Secondly, I wonder how costly it would be, say, to do 10 engines, plus the control units?

runtime

[chuck]

You can't control DCC with Legacy and you would need the HO version of DCS to even make a stab at controlling the DCC loco. The reports on the success of doing the latter are not encouraging. If you really want to control a DCC loco use DCC. You could gut the electronics in the On30 loco and replace them with TMCC equivalents from Electric RR or Digital Dynamics you could then control the engine from TMCC/Legacy or through the TMCC emulator on DCS. I'm not sure that makes sense but it is an option.

[Dannyboy6]

Hey Don or anyone else that can help, I have Lionel Legacy for my O Scale trains, and am putting in a On30 coal mining operation....considering using Bachmann gas engine with their v-dump cars. It has DCC, and I was wondering if anyone knows how I could control it with the Legacy controller.

[nblum]

"I still don't understand some peoples claim of Lionel's flexibility is more than MTH's."

 

I don't think anyone's claiming that.  Each system does a good job of controlling the devices and locomotives designed for that system, and you cannot control any of these systems without the command control equipment designed for it, whether it's DCS, TMCC or DCC.  The claim that DCS can be used as a universal system with no loss of functionality is what I am debating, because I believe it is a false claim unless you are predominately going to operate PS2 locomotives designed for the DCS system.  If you want to operate TMCC or Legacy locomotives created by Lionel, Atlas, K-Line by Lionel, Weaver or 3rd Rail in command mode you need the TMCC or Legacy systems, and the cab-1 and Legacy handheld are the only devices that give you full access to TMCC and Legacy functions respectively.  If you want to control DCC locomotives, neither DCS nor TMCC will do that. Them's the facts. 

[enginear]

Wow............,   .......... wow .............,   wow!!!

Easy now guys I appreciate any advice as I'm relatively new to these systems. I am trying to do something that may be new for these systems. O scale may be my future if I lose patience waiting for G scale to develop. I must post that I still am amazed how.....loyal?..... each user is to their particular system. I have invested in my third system (DCS) and want to figure how to get the most out of it. I still don't understand some peoples claim of Lionel's flexibility is more than MTH's. Maybe I should have looked more closely at Lionel or waited for the Legacy (which was not out yet). I saw the Lionel TMCC and thought if I could "drive" it with MTH I would not be so limited as with my first two systems. I have a prodigy system for HO that just sits as a tester (bench warmer). 

Again I am humbled at your enthusiasm at each systems capabilities, and I thank everyone for their input so far! Not many people in G scale understand why I look to O scale for what I feel have superior control systems at their reach! Joe P. email= [e-mail]

[dbaker48]

BOTTOM LINE - ENJOY YOUR SYSTEM, I THINK IT IS A GREAT SYSTEM.  BUT ITS NOT THE ONLY ONE OUT THERE AND IT HAS SOME REALLY TOUGH COMPETITON THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE FIND EVEN MORE REWARDING

And also you can have the LAST word here, this conversations isn't worth my time.  Points have been made, try to give honest and true facts to newbies when you can.  If not so be it. 

[nblum]

" I DIDN'T SAY (THOUGH I SHOULD HAVE) IT IS LESS EXPENSIVE THEN TMCC, NOR DID I SAY THE HANDHELD IS EASIER TO  USE."

 

The original question was about emulation, not which system is "better," something that you, like many MTH fans, insist on bringing up.  DCS emulates the TMCC system only when you have the command base or Legacy base so you really need both systems.  The only thing being emulated is Engine commands and that set of commands is incomplete.  You chose to use DCS back when its emulation of TMCC Engine commands was even more limited and you really absolutely had to use the cab-1 to do complete resets, set momentum and stall, do lashups if you wanted to use them fully.  Since you're a big MTH fan that wasn't an issue and you became familiar with and prefer the DCS handheld.  That was your choice and you're obviously a DCS fan who uses primarily PS2 locos. 

 

Here is what was my point,  since it got lost in the verbiage.  The only person who is going to use primarily the DCS handheld for everything is someone with mostly or exclusively MTH equipment, including the AIU, and the TIU's inferior conventional control capabilities, etc.  For those with lots of TMCC equipment or relatively equal numbers of TMCC/Legacy and PS2 locos, to use the DCS handheld for everything is far from optimal.  The DCS handheld is quite inferior for control of TMCC and Legacy locos except for folks who are primarily DCS/MTH fans and thus used to the DCS handheld, like yourself.

 

I could have mentioned that TMCC/Legacy is a far more reliable and easy to setup system and doesn't require as many fussy wiring or kludgy adaptations as DCS, but I didn't.  Or that TMCC and Legacy sounds are much more musical, easy on the ears and enjoyable.  But I didn't, because it wasn't the subject of the original question, which was emulation.

[dbaker48]

"As long as you have a TMCC Command Base, the MTH DCS system WILL control TMCC, and all the features.  I am not aware of any feature that is NOT able to be done with DCS.)"

 

This is not true.  Perhaps if you had more experience with TMCC and Legacy, you would be aware of the following facts.  All TMCC commands that involve track, route,  switches and accessories are not yet implemented in DCS, 4.0 or otherwise. That's four of the five buttons at the top of the cab-1 are not emulated. Likewise, all new Legacy functions (brake, speed, momentum, sound features) are not implemented in DCS, so it is erroneous to claim that DCS emulates all TMCC and Legacy functions. This list will only grow in the future as MTH is not permitted to implement Lionel's new features, probably because MTH has threatened lawsuits over any attempts to emulate DCS technology by anyone.

 

I will maintain my previous position that if you are using primarily PS2 locos and just a few TMCC locos, DCS emulation may be meaningful.  If you have a layout with lots of TMCC or Legacy locos, or are using Lionel's (superior to DCS) conventional control features (e.g., TPC 300, TPC 400), or Lionel's accessory/switch controllers (SC2), DCS will not be a useful emulation because the cab-1 or Legacy handhelds can control all functions and are superior, as one would expect for the device that is designed to work with the elements being controlled.  DCS cannot control TPCs, SC2s or other Lionel devices at  this point in time, and cannot provide full control of new Legacy locos. And that's a fact ;).

I'm not sure but we may be closer in agreement than YOU realize.  Tonight, I ran my Lionel Legacy Big Boy, Lionel TMCC Cab Forward in a Lash-up, ALL CONTROLLED THROUGH MY DCS HANDHELD REMOTE.  

Now when I earlier stated about the TMCC compatibility, I was reffering to the engine characteristics.   It would seem kind of silly for person who had already invested in SC2's, TPC's would most likely already have TMCC and not looking for DCS to control them.  

Whether you are controlling track switches, accessories, routes and the other items you mention regarding TMCC, why would anyone who already owns those boxes want to use DCS, doesn't make sense.  Now if don't own them, the cost difference is substancial.  I delibereated long over this when I bought DCS and found with 1 AIU (DCS) I can control 10 switches, and 10 accessories, (compared to 6 switches or 4 switches and 4 accessores, for the same price.)  Regarding routes, I can do that with DCS for either system (TMCC or Legacy engines). So 1 remote and I got the WHOLE thing.  Your right my hand held doesn't vibrate in my hand, but I do have Brake, Momentum.  AS YOU KNOW, Legacy gives you 5 speed settings you can select and the engine will jump to that speed.  DCS can't do that, with DCS you push the thumbwheel and then enter WHATEVER speed you want (up to three digits), and the engine will respond to that.  YOU ARE ALSO CORRECT regarding the Brake, providing in Legacy a reverse bias on the engine making react as if under "load".  DCS does not do that it creates a "Labored Sound Effect w/smoke, and you can brake the engine with the rocker switch.

Are we spliting hairs here or what??

Your original statement about TMCC having limited capability of DCS, and the same for DCS operating TMCC, was incorrect.  That's what I took issue with.  AND STILL MAINTAIN, TMCC WILL NOT CONTROL ANY OF DCS, WHILE DCS WILL OPERATE ALL OF TMCC, AND THE MAJORITY OF LEGACY THAT IS CURRENTLY AVAILABLE.  I DIDN'T SAY (THOUGH I SHOULD HAVE) IT IS LESS EXPENSIVE THEN TMCC, NOR DID I SAY THE HANDHELD IS EASIER TO  USE.

BOTTOM LINE - ENJOY YOUR SYSTEM, I THINK IT IS A GREAT SYSTEM.  BUT ITS NOT THE ONLY ONE OUT THERE AND IT HAS SOME REALLY TOUGH COMPETITON THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE FIND EVEN MORE REWARDING

[nblum]

"As long as you have a TMCC Command Base, the MTH DCS system WILL control TMCC, and all the features.  I am not aware of any feature that is NOT able to be done with DCS.)"

 

This is not true.  Perhaps if you had more experience with TMCC and Legacy, you would be aware of the following facts.  All TMCC commands that involve track, route,  switches and accessories are not yet implemented in DCS, 4.0 or otherwise. That's four of the five buttons at the top of the cab-1 are not emulated. Likewise, all new Legacy functions (brake, speed, momentum, sound features) are not implemented in DCS, so it is erroneous to claim that DCS emulates all TMCC and Legacy functions. This list will only grow in the future as MTH is not permitted to implement Lionel's new features, probably because MTH has threatened lawsuits over any attempts to emulate DCS technology by anyone.

 

I will maintain my previous position that if you are using primarily PS2 locos and just a few TMCC locos, DCS emulation may be meaningful.  If you have a layout with lots of TMCC or Legacy locos, or are using Lionel's (superior to DCS) conventional control features (e.g., TPC 300, TPC 400), or Lionel's accessory/switch controllers (SC2), DCS will not be a useful emulation because the cab-1 or Legacy handhelds can control all functions and are superior, as one would expect for the device that is designed to work with the elements being controlled.  DCS cannot control TPCs, SC2s or other Lionel devices at  this point in time, and cannot provide full control of new Legacy locos. And that's a fact ;).

[enginear]

Wow, Lionel got an answer right back to me! For everyones view:

>>> TECH SUPPORT 5/7/2008 9:15 AM >>>
TMCC can work with command American Flyer which is 2 rail.
It can only work with engines that have our command board in it.

Lionel


>>> TALK TOUS 5/6/2008 4:53 PM >>>

[dbaker48]

Please understand I am NOT trying to be cynical or abrasive.

Phillyreading wrote:

Now for DCC, it is used for D.C. trains in H.O. or maybe G scale but won't work with three rail O gauge trains.

I agree 100%

Lee, although HO does run on DC in conventional  operation, when operated in DCC, it actually uses AC current to the track, and the decoder rectifies it for use by the Locomotives motor.

                                                                Doug

Again I agree 100% 

Doug,

Just to clear up a point or two, some of the original things that Joe wanted to do I wasn't sure if it could be done. I know that TMCC will control some features of PS-2 or DCS engines but not all features  (Unfortunately, TMCC will NOT control any aspect of the PS-2 or MTH DCS system.  It will only operate them in the conventional mode, same as controlling post war lionel.)

 and the same about DCS and TMCC. (As long as you have a TMCC Command Base, the MTH DCS system WILL control TMCC, and all the features.  I am not aware of any feature that is NOT able to be done with DCS.)  MTH recommends using a TMCC base along with the DCS system to get most or all the features from TMCC with DCS. (required for TMCC.)

Don B.   Are you saying that if a person wanted to use DCS for DCC operation that he would need a seperate DCS unit?  No, I don't think I was as clear as I could have been.  As an alternative for DCC with G-Scale, DCS is available and growing in popularity.  MTH has really gotten in to the large scale market and promoting the DCS system there.  Of course the engine has to have the DCS electronics as well.  The same TIU as used in O scale is used in G scale, as is the remote controller. I have 2 G-scale track that run around the ceiling of my train room, and plan on doing some outside in the future.  I was quite pleased to find out that I could have DCS there as well.  Keep in mind that the DCS is an alternative to the DCC, it does not control the DCC.  Hope this clears it up a little.  I have NOT done an economic comparison of DCC operation costs, and engine costs with the DCC system.  I don't know if the DCS engines are more costly or not than the DCC engines.

I was interested in trying a TIU port with DCC but if the hand held won't work certain features I will have to buy the DCC unit. Not looking to dive into DCC as yet.

Lee F.

[phillyreading]

Phillyreading wrote:

Now for DCC, it is used for D.C. trains in H.O. or maybe G scale but won't work with three rail O gauge trains.

   Lee, although HO does run on DC in conventional  operation, when operated in DCC, it actually uses AC current to the track, and the decoder rectifies it for use by the Locomotives motor.

                                                                Doug

Doug,

Just to clear up a point or two, some of the original things that Joe wanted to do I wasn't sure if it could be done. I know that TMCC will control some features of PS-2 or DCS engines but not all features and the same about DCS and TMCC. MTH recommends using a TMCC base along with the DCS system to get most or all the features from TMCC with DCS.

Don B.   Are you saying that if a person wanted to use DCS for DCC operation that he would need a seperate DCS unit?

I was interested in trying a TIU port with DCC but if the hand held won't work certain features I will have to buy the DCC unit. Not looking to dive into DCC as yet.

Lee F.

[enginear]

yeah, I too just upgraded to dcs 4.0 and I thought I read that it could access all the features. I just don't know what platform Lionel uses. Every tells me that its open archetechure, whatever that maybe. I was hoping that it was able to talk DCC lingo? Don, thanks for the input

[dbaker48]

 The only interoperability, and it's limited, is you can use the DCS handheld to operate TMCC/Legacy locomotives for basic functions, but this requires that you purchase the TMCC or Legacy command base and a cable (not yet available for Legacy) to do so.  

Yes, I have purchased the TMCC Command Base, (currently unpluged and not being used) and the Legacy controller, and the NOT yet available cable.  

Please, please tell my what TMCC operations I can not do, there must be some super secret ones that I am not aware of.  I do NOT know of any TMCC features I can not do with the DCS.  Regarding Legacy, my DCS controller doe NOT vibrate in my hand, and I can not quill the whistle.  I have the brake sounds, boost capability what else am I missing?? 

Just a matter of opinion, but none of the emulation that's available is all that useful unless you are operating primarily PS2 locos with a few TMCC locos,(?) in which case DCS emulation of TMCC is a reasonable approach.  And you still need the TMCC command base to do this.  Since the newer Lionel Legacy locos will have functions not accessible by the DCS system, this is becoming a moot point, since Lionel has responded to MTH's refusal to allow interoperability by refusing to allow  MTH to access new Legacy features with their DCS handheld.  Not very consumer friendly, but that's the state of the industry at the moment.

I respect your right to your opinion, but please spend some time, or visit someone, so as not to confuse the opinion with fact.

BTW - With DCS 4.0 can also do TMCC Lash-ups, and even the Speed Control will work, (with TMCC it is using speed steps as oppossed to SMPH however.) 

 

 

[enginear]

Neil, Thank you for the info. I was just hoping by now these manufacturers had worked out their differences so we could figure out which direction to go. I hate that we are just along for the ride and are stuck with incompatability issues! My previous purchases will remain a mistake. Thanks again, I'll just have to wait a few more YEARS! Joe Paonessa

[nblum]

The DCC, TMCC/Legacy and DCS systems are three completely independent methods of operation and none of them can be operated without the equipment designed for the system in question.  The only interoperability, and it's limited, is you can use the DCS handheld to operate TMCC/Legacy locomotives for basic functions, but this requires that you purchase the TMCC or Legacy command base and a cable (not yet available for Legacy) to do so.  While MTH HO locos contain DCC capable encoders, the DCS handheld will not operate them in DCC mode, only DCS.  If you want to control them in DCC mode, you need DCC hardware.

Just a matter of opinion, but none of the emulation that's available is all that useful unless you are operating primarily PS2 locos with a few TMCC locos, in which case DCS emulation of TMCC is a reasonable approach.  And you still need the TMCC command base to do this.  Since the newer Lionel Legacy locos will have functions not accessible by the DCS system, this is becoming a moot point, since Lionel has responded to MTH's refusal to allow interoperability by refusing to allow  MTH to access new Legacy features with their DCS handheld.  Not very consumer friendly, but that's the state of the industry at the moment.

[challenger3980]

Phillyreading wrote:

Now for DCC, it is used for D.C. trains in H.O. or maybe G scale but won't work with three rail O gauge trains.

   Lee, although HO does run on DC in conventional  operation, when operated in DCC, it actually uses AC current to the track, and the decoder rectifies it for use by the Locomotives motor.

                                                                Doug

[dbaker48]

I just wonder if the lionel system can talk to a regular DCC G scale sound decoder that I already own.Thanks, Joe.

Unfortunately, I don't think so.  I'm certain the electronics are totally different.

Regarding the Big Boy and the trestle.  I sure wish you wouldn't have suggested that!  I don't like taking it down to the club, because of all the extra handling that occurs just getting it there and back.  And then, something usually happens, rear ended or what ever.  But, a picture of it setting on the trestle bridge would be good.  hmmmm 

[enginear]

Hey Don, Beautifull club layout! I'm a diesel nut and you have them, but I'd love to see the bigboy crossing those trestles under full steam! Anyway just wanted to say that I'm just talking about the G scale layout only. The HO scale is under digitrax super chief control. I just wonder if the lionel system can talk to a regular DCC G scale sound decoder that I already own.Thanks, Joe.

[dbaker48]

Eninear -

As you indicated in your post, You are running MTH DCS, and Yes, it WILL control TMCC engines. 

"While TMCC may run some of the DCS features there are some things that TMCC can not do because of electronic circuit board issues, the same for DCS working TMCC." 

The above statement is not correct, TMCC will not run DCS at all, (only in conventional mode.) however, DCS ver 4.0 or 4.1 WILL run TMCC engines.  (As a matter of fact I havn't found anything in the TMCC that DCS will NOT do, even lash-ups.   Don't know why some people say it can't, I do it everyday.)  TMCC wil NOT run the DCS however, except in conventional mode.

As far as using DCS for controlling the HO or G-Scale it will accomodate that as well, you do need to have the DCS electronics installed in the engine.  (Ref: MTH Catalogs)  Now you will need to have seperate TIU's, for the different guages.  The reason is HO and G-Scale are typically DC and O scale is AC.  And you cannot put both DC and AC in the same TIU.  

I have also installed various sound systems in both my G-Scale and O Scale trains.  I have a hobo who yells "Help ! Let me outta here"  which was intended for G-Scale, works perfectly in O Scale, uses a reed switch to activate.  Plus many other sounds that are available. 

I would suggest a trip to local hobby shop, and given that your in Western NY between there and PA you have a lot!  Then you could discuss first hand what your attempting to do and probably get some really good information. 

Good luck and have fun!!

[phillyreading]

What you are trying to do is highly unlikely to work right, that's my opion.

Go with the proper sound system for your scale of trains, get the Bachman decoder if you need to, I think that would work better than using DCC through DCS then through TMCC, tooo many command models and your signals may get totally scrambled!!

DCS and TMCC may be combined but combining other systems with them is something that I would stay away from unless you want the possibility for burnouts or smoke filled room.

Lee F.

 

[enginear]

I'm running G gauge two rail with MTH DCS. (ESU) Locksound is a decoder with sound built in that conforms to DCC like the other brands. I just thought I might be able to send DCC commands with the DCS through a lionel base? Maybe a pipe dream.

[phillyreading]

Joe,

You are talking about three differant systems here, maybe four. First there is TMCC by Lionel, second you have DCS by MTH, third you have DCC for H.O. trains, not at all compatible. While TMCC may run some of the DCS features there are some things that TMCC can not do because of electronic circuit board issues, the same for DCS working TMCC.  Now for DCC, it is used for D.C. trains in H.O. or maybe G scale but won't work with three rail O gauge trains.  Like I mentioned at the start you have three differantr sysytems, it would be to your advantage to read up on the systems before you buy stuff to use with them.

QSI  for three rail don't need command control systems to work, just a transformer with horn& whistle buttons. Never heard of Locksound before, what is it used for?

Lee F.

[enginear]

I run MTH DCS. It will control Lionel TMCC,right? Will Lionel control a regular DCC decoder like Locksound, or QSI? If it will than I could run anything? Let me know, Joe