Gauge and scale--here we go again

[Anonymous]

Well, I noticed that the new K-Line catalog has listed O SCALE diesels and O GAUGE diesels. Without getting into the space between rails and all that, will either of these work on Lionel O track? Why make both?

Thanks

[brianel027]

Well Jack, I can't speak officially for K-Line, but you must have noticed the whole 3-rail hobby is into this "scale" thing. All of the companies are catering to their market - which is mostly older, well-to-do adults. These adults who have the time and money to make the 2 yearly pilgrimages to YORK speak with words and dollars... the companies have listened. On the other forum, the scale HO guys are routinely made fun of as "weenies." I guess that makes these adults (who cringe at the idea of 027 and toy trains, or buying something that isn't scale) "scale weenies."

Yep Jack, it's gotta be 1/4 inch to the foot total accuracy. No exceptions or no sale. That's what the hobby has become. The older trains we grew up with weren't always scale dimensioned, but did run on 0-gauge track.

In a bygone era when trains were viewed as toys and children were allowed to run them (heaven forbid trusting a 10 year old to run a GG1 - today that's a criminal offense) because the trains were for kids. Now those kids are adults who have completely forgotten about the kids. Their motto is "me me me and me." Their mantra is "scale scale scale and not a fraction of an inch less that 1000% accuracy."

I don't have time nor the interest to count rivets and then check prototypical accuracy and then go to YORK to complain that the last engine had 2 less rivets than it should have. Or that the marker lights were in the wrong position. Or that the headlight should have been centered. THESE are the folks K-Line and everyone else is catering to. The companies don't even want to admit that a particular train runs on 027 curves for fear the "scale gang" will think it's really a "toy" train.

Meanwhile the kids get battery powered garbage and rehashes of rehashed postwar items with long forgotten postwar roadnames that mean nothing to them. Nevermind that the times have changed and trains aren't what they once were. Even when kids do get to go to a hobby shop and see trains, they're there because of dad's layout. And told not to touch the engine because it cost $600.00. I wish I was making that up, but I've seen it happen one too many times.

TRUE STORY: last time I was at a train shop, some boy excitedly picked up some Lionel car to show his dad. The father looked and barked "put that down! It' costs $60!!!" The kid turned and looked at me with the saddest face and a tear in his eye. I had to bite my lip real hard not to say something.

Yep, the future for trains looks REAL good.... all the happy memories kids will have of being told not to touch the trains because they're scale models, not toys AND expensive!!

The companies are riding the wave while it is high, because as much as this is the best of times for the hobby... it's gonna be downhill hard and fast sometime in the near future. Those who think this hobby has a solid future should ask how many $600+ scale sized train engines are in the hands of kids today.

Sorry Jack, got on a roll. I really don't mind the scale stuff. But it really seems that it has come with cost of losing the kinds of trains that start the hobby for folks, save for a few token entries.

[IRONROOSTER]

In many cases O gauge trains are made with less than scale length so they can go around sharp (i.e O27) curves. Usually their height and width is reduced also, but not by the same proportion. Thus the model is no longer 'scale'. This is noticable if you mix O27 and O scale cars. Whether it is objectionable is up to you. Historically, boxcars were shorter, less tall, and narrower, so mixing is not totally out of line prototypically. Personally, I'm building an S 'scale' layout and plan to put an O27 layout under it so i can have the best of both worlds.
Enjoy
Paul

[ChiefEagles]

What happened to the fun of trains? Guess I'm still a kid [57]. I just enjoy running them and the exact scale thing never has impressed me. If they look right and run good, I enjoy. Guess I'll have to get my rule out and measure this one and see if it is "right". That is not for me. I just want to enjoy them.

[brianel027]

Thank you ChiefEagles. Well said.

[Anonymous]

Thanks to you all! I didn't realize I was opening up a can of worms here. I agree with Chief_Eagle. I run what I like and could care less if it's scale. Oh, and by the way, my four year-old son helps me with my layout, runs the trains (with the CAB1's voltage restricter setting) and when we go to the train stores he can touch any damn thing he wants!

[spankybird]

Hi All,
I have to agree with Brian on K-line and scale. It seems funny that K-lilne will offer an egnine at 1/64 to be scale but yet run in on O gauge track. Yet they want you to buy a 1/48 scale caboose behind it. I would perfer and do run an MTH 2-6-6-6 on 027 track and it looks fine to me. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I would perfer to have an engine close to height and width and short on lenght, than overall being small.

I have to question the cost of train cars. Some of my collection is from my childhood. I have boxes with $4.00 price on it. This is from 1949. Should we put inflation on this. Lets not for get when the peanut framer was in charge and we had 18% per year. I think the $4.00 is about $75.00 today.

Last year I was cleaning out my Mom's records, after she pasted. I came upon some old tax returns form the late 1960. I better now than ever understand what it took for my dad to buy a train for both my bother and me.

[Anonymous]

Oh, you bet it was always hard to make ends meet, not just nowdays. My first train set (which I still own, box and all and still run!) was the Marx Happi-Time freight set from 1957, Engine 333. My Dad bought it at Sears for $10 and I later heard from him that even THAT was "too darn much." He doesn't remember the cost of the Lionel sets of the day, but as we all know from looking at old Lionel catalogs, a set like that would have run $60. Way too much for a guy supporting a family of four on $30 a week and mortgage payment of $18.00 a month. Sounds low compared to today, but that $18 was just as hard to come by as our $1,500.

[Chris F]

spankybird, that $4.00 item purchased in 1949 would have an inflation-adjusted price of $30.89 in 2003.

Jack, that $10 Marx set purchased in 1959 would have an inflation-adjusted price of $63.16 in 2003.

The website for the Federal Reserve in Minneapolis has an inflation calculator at
www. minneapolisfed.org/research/data/us/calc

[Anonymous]

As the others, I really don't care that my Lionel Model 2018 2-6-4 steamer isn't "prototypical", isn't really to scale, and probably didn't exist in the real world. (Please correct me if I'm wrong!) My parents bought it for me in 1957, at a cost of $29.95. That was extremely expensive for 1957, especially for my parents who had to pay rent, plus enormous medical expenses for my younger brother. I still have that locomotive (sadly, I've lost the tender and cars) and it still runs beautifully. I certainly can't complain about that!

To me, the whole purpose of having model trains is to enjoy running them. I get a kick out of watching a father (or mother) bring their kids to see the layout at the Troy (Ohio) N-scale Society. Granted, it's not 1", but the point is that we run trains and we show the kids how the trains work. I don't talk just to the parent, I talk to the kid as well. After all, they're the ones who will make this hobby enjoyable for all of us.

I guess that I'm feeling my age and wishing I had had kids of my own (I'd be a grandfather by now), because a big part of running trains is sharing it with the kids.

I cringe when a parent snaps at one of their children for "touching" stuff in the LHS. It's not my shop, so I don't say anything, but I can see how the child could become very alienated to the hobby.

[lionelsoni]

Tom, the 1:64 O-gauge Big Boy strikes me as a throwback to prewar American Flyer.

[DSchmitt]

As an O scale 2 railer I am happy to see more equipment on the market that I can use. K line has led the way in making O scale 3 rail cars that can be easily converted to 2 rail. I wish MTH would do the same. It would increase the market for their "scale" line and potentially bring down prices.

There have always been some O gauge products that were closer to scale than others and the "scale" stuff has generally been the top of the line and at a higher price. For instance Lionel.

Both K-Line and MTH have distinguished between their scale and non-scale lines.
Lionel generally has not made the distinction..

Scale fidelity however does not necessairly have to bring higher prices, although unfortunately it often does.[:(]

O gauge is not my thing, but I do enjoy visiting others O gauge layouts and watching the action.[:D]

Whether scale or not, the pricing often makes parents reluctant to buy trains for their kids, or they buy them cheap junk. This is true in HO and N as well as O.

[Big_Boy_4005]

See guys, all of this scale stuff has caused me to switch my entire collecting style. I still own tons of the old stuff, but you won't find any of it on my new layout, and I'm not buying it any more. I'm not sure if I've grown up, but my taste in trains sure has.[swg]

For years I was torn between scale and "toy", now I don't have to be! I get the best of both worlds. I just updated my signature, anouncing to the entire world that I'm a weirdo, and damn proud of it. This is my 30th year in the NMRA, and 22nd year in the TCA. There aren't too many people who can say that, but then again there aren't too many who want to.[;)][(-D][(-D][(-D]

[spankybird]

Well put Elliot.

I do like the detail and I do like the 19th Cent. cars. Sometimes I an not sure what is really scale size cars. I watch real trains go by and there are many different size box cars on it, different height and length. So who is to say what size are the cars on my model (toy) train layout.

I must also agree, If it has flanged whelels, I like it!!!!

[ChiefEagles]

Hey Elliot, send me all your old stuff. :-) Excellent job on layout plans.

[Anonymous]

I don't even know what a flange is.