Sound deadening with FasTrack not possible--Results are in

[Anonymous]

Hi all,

Well, the results of my testing are in. For those just joining us here, I will explain and then move on. Lionel's new FasTrack is wonderful stuff but NOISY on our hard wood benchwork and other hard surfaces! It's so noisy on my plywood table top that it ruins the sound of my railsounds! So I did some testing.

This was on my plywood topped layout. I made a 36" curve oval with four straights on each side. First I attached the FasTrack with screws DIRECTLY to the table top only on ONE side of the oval. The sound the Lionel SD90 MAC Diesel made was the SAME on each side of the oval. No difference.

I then put Owens Corning Foam SealR (go to Owenscorning.com to see the stuff--it's like a pink cushioning pad) underneath ONE side of the oval with screws only SLIGHTLY IN, but not going through to the table top, to again compare sound. Again, NO DIFFERENCE in sound--LOUD!

This sound will not go away on anything---HOMOsote, cotton toweling, you name it. That's because the sound you're hearing from the FasTrack is not coming from UNDER the "fake" road bed. It's actually the rails against that hard plastic that makes it sound like a roller rink (do they still have those today?)

Why you ask? What could be going on? I'll tell you. It's the sound of the METAL rails embedded in FasTrack's hard plastic. The rails make sound against the plastic and all the cushioning in the world underneath is NOT going to make a difference enough to enjoy our railsounds.

Conclusion: And listen up Lionel techs, Unless the rails are sunk into rubber or some other sound absorbing material before they are attached into the hard plastic of the FasTrack "road bed" OR the road bed is made of something other than hard plastic, the sound of the rails against the hard plastic will never go away. Not to my satisfaction. Want to have fun running on the floor--go for it. Want a REAL layout, go with the tried and true methods. I'm not replacing hundreds of dollars worth of my tubular track on vinyl bed for this stuff, no matter how nice it looks.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Wow Jack, I wish I could have been there to hear that. The single section of track sitting here on my desk is rather quiet.[:D][(-D][(-D][;)]

[Anonymous]

Amtrack Jack, I'm definately going to sell my fast track pennsy flyer set now. I'll just stick with my AF

Carpenter matt

[brianel027]

Very interesting Jack... sounds (bad word choice?) like you've been doing your homework on this. When I heard (bad word choice again?) Lionel was coming out with this FasTrack initailly I thought it was a dumb idea. And though I see the merits for floor layouts and easy set-up for kids, I still think it's a dumb idea. Even before I read your post here Jack, I wondered how many serious modelers were going to rip up their Gargraves, Curtis or Atlas Track to replace it with FasTrack?? And all this talk of more track selection in wider radius curves... it should be SMALLER radius curves. The track is most suited for beginning modelers. The current 40 inch radius is limiting for a family train layout.

Of course then again, I've always wondered how many kids today actually get train sets? Though they say stater set sales are up, the vast majority of new product being made is scale sized and priced - and obviously not for kids. Maybe starter set sales are up because the grown-ups know where to look for the blowouts and price reductions on sets, then buy as many as they can to break-up and resell on ebay.

I myself wondered if the insulation idea would work? Or laying the stuff on either homosote or using carrpeting on the train board? (How many serious scale modelers build their layouts with indoor/outdoor carpeting though???) Given the overwhelming emphasis on trains today with sound systems, I can't see why anyone would want a track system that drowns out the sounds the train is supposed to make with sounds you wish it wouldn't make.

There are simple improvements Lionel could have made to the existing 027 track to make it better looking and capable of running larger more scale sized engines. Making the 027 track with plastic ties and some kind of snap connection would make it easier to use. Sounds to me from everything I've heard about FasTrack, that Lionel should have gone back to making Super '0' track.

I'm sure Maddox's connection with Bachmann had a lot to do with the creation of FasTrack. The Bachmann E-Z Track for HO trains was a big step forward for under the holiday tree HO set sales. But HO trains don't make that much noise even if you nail every section of the track down on 1-inch thick plywood. There's a big difference in the noise level between HO trains and our 3-rail trains. Maybe to help cut costs while reducing the noise, Lionel could go back to the novel MPC-era idea of putting plastic wheels on their trains again. That might help cut noise.

When did Super '0' appear... 1957 I think. It may have been the premiere Lionel track system, but it only lasted a few years before all Lionel sets went back to having the old reliable '027' track. Wonder how long FasTrack will last now???

[Anonymous]

I think it is still possible to dampen the sounds. You must fill in the void below the roadbed with a sound absorbing material. You might turning the track upside down and filling the base with a flexible caulking material and letting it dry before placing it on a foam base. First attach any wires you need before doing this.

Daniel Lang

[brianel027]

But, Dan that would be a awful load of extra work to put into a track system that was supposedly designed for convenience as well as realism. And I don't think a flexible caulk would be any better (or cheaper) than the Foam SealR that Amtrak Jack tried. Granted, as some guys experiment, someone may come up with something that might effectively work. But that needs to be a simple and cost-effective solution too. With all the additional cost and effort of having to put foam or caulk under every piece of FasTrack, you could probably justify buying Atlas O which is very very nice track... just a little on the pricey side for some of us - especially the turnouts.

From the way it sounds, seems the FasTrack is even noisey than tubular 027 or 0 track.
Hmmm, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Anonymous]

I agree it is a lot of extra work!

The problem with simply putting foam underneath the roadbed is that the foam is more of a sound isolator (barrier) than absorber. The sound is transmitted from the track to the plastic roadbed which acts as a drumhead. The coupling between the roadbed and a layer of foam below is fairly weak and thus ineffective. One must use a sound absorbing material that is comparable in density to the plastic and bonded tightly to the plastic to damp the vibrations.

I do not have to worry about this as I am using Atlas track :-)

Daniel Lang

[brianel027]

Yep Daniel, ironically Atlas 0 track is the Super 0 track of today. It is unquestionable very nice stuff. Lionel missed the boat on that one. Also ironic too that I'm sure FasTrack was under development while Maddox was head of Lionel. Now he is with Atlas and touting the advantages of and promoting Atlas 0.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Daniel Lang

I think it is still possible to dampen the sounds. You must fill in the void below the roadbed with a sound absorbing material. You might turning the track upside down and filling the base with a flexible caulking material and letting it dry before placing it on a foam base. First attach any wires you need before doing this.

Daniel Lang

Dan, you didn't read? NO amount of anything UNDER the fake road bed is going to make a difference. It's the sound of the metal rails against hard plastic. Don't think my tests were good enough? We'll wait for your test. And remember, the solution has to be COST EFFECTIVE.

[Anonymous]

Hello Amtrack,

Yes, I did read your message. The problem is that the foam is much lower density than the plastic and does not do a good job of damping the vibrations in the plastic (but does prevent vibrations from being transferred to the plywood).

I DO think filling the void with a caulking material will make a difference. However, I do not have any FasTrack and will leave the test to someone else.

Another possibility is to fill the void with hydrocal (probably cheaper than caulking compound).

Daniel Lang

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Daniel Lang

Hello Amtrack,

Yes, I did read your message. The problem is that the foam is much lower density than the plastic and does not do a good job of damping the vibrations in the plastic (but does prevent vibrations from being transferred to the plywood).

I DO think filling the void with a caulking material will make a difference. However, I do not have any FasTrack and will leave the test to someone else.

Another possibility is to fill the void with hydrocal (probably cheaper than caulking compound).

Daniel Lang

Not worth the bother. Too expensive and do you realize all the connections are underneath? The only option is to leave this stuff for the beginners and stay with what works.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Hey Jack, I bent the tabs and took the rail off, and I found the problem.


All of those little holes in the bottom correspond to all of those little knobs. The metal rail is heavy enough not to need the knobs, but the machine that assembles the components probably needs them for alignment.


I stopped off at the hobby store this morning, and had a chance to talk to the owner for a minute, and I asked him how the Fastrack was selling. He said that it was selling OK but not great. But he also said that it was kind of a pain because it was a whole other line of product to stock, and it was watering down the sales of the traditional track.

The bottom line is that integral roadbed track hasn't out sold standard track in HO, and it is extremely unlikely that it will happen here either. Only time will tell, but since MTH has a head start, and seems to not be capturing much market share, I'm not sure if any of it will be around in 5 years.

[brianel027]

I was going to bring up the MTH Real Trax Big_Boy. I haven't heard the noise complaints about that stuff the way I am about the FasTrack. I would imagine there has to be some higher noise level, but maybe they manufacture and assemble their track differently. I have seen some layouts done with the MTH Real Trax and my observation is the same as with the FasTrack: the roadbed is too darned big for the smaller kinds of layouts that most beginners would build. At least MTH makes theirs in a 31-inch diameter, plus roadbed size.

Not only did MTH get the head start, but there has also been some real brand loyalty in the past with MTH customers. Maybe not as much now, but seems a few years ago there were more modelers who were saying "I only buy MTH products." I think in part it was a frustration with Lionel that led to that thinking. Just as there have been some who say they only buy Lionel. I think the brand loyalty lines are much more blurred today than they've ever been. Folks seem to buy what they like and what's on sale.

PS: Thanks Big_Boy for your photo demonstration and pulling apart your single piece of FasTrack. Your sacrifice is noted, as you won't be able to sell it in the future as a mint condition collectible.... [:D][:D][:D]

Ah, just wrap it in cellophane the way it is and make up some story how this was the prototype piece made by JLC himself (in China no less) and found in the Lionel archives... and don't forget - when you post it on ebay be sure you use the word "Rare" several times. Better yet, say "Well Done" and see if anyone gets it?!!! [:D]

[Anonymous]

Thanks Big Boy and Brian. Just another reason to stay with what you have. In my case, Lionel O and 027. Good stuff for beginners though.

[Anonymous]

This needed to be at the top again for a while. For those considering buying it for permanent layouts, I'd think again. Even Bracy, the CEO of Lionel says in the newsletter this month that it was never meant to be for us permanent layout guys.

[pbjwilson]

When I saw the topic I thought it said "Sound deafening with FasTrack......

Paul the Painter

[spankybird]

Hi all,

I can’t comment on the Fastrack as I do not have any, but I do have MTH Realtrack on my Christmas layout. This was built light weight to ease the lifting and moving. The top is ¼ plywood with 1 x 4 framing. The track is screwed to the plywood. I use a MTH 440 with PS2 for this layout. I have turned the volume on the engine down to 40% for engine sound and have no problem with noise from the track. I can run the train and still watch TV.

[brianel027]

Spankybird, the MTH track is made differently... it's solid rail and not inserted into the roadbed plastic as is the FasTrack. I had the chance to see a simple FasTrack layout on plywood and it is noisey. You could barely hear the Railsounds coming from the engine.

Thanks Amtrak Jack for the Bracey comment. Funny but it sure sounded like Lionel meant for it to be for serious modelers with all the planned new track in wider radius curves and switches.

I felt from square one FasTrack was a mistake. I feel more so now. The only advantage I can see it has it immediate set up. K-Line's SnapTrack is better, without the large roadbed. A 4'x8' FasTrack layout can be nothing more than an extended oval. I never once thought that scale modelers would be ripping up their Atlas, Gargraves and Curtis track to replace it with FasTrack. I think Lionel initially felt they would. Why would you offer wider radius curves and switches intended for floor layouts or temporary for kids???

Lionel was trying to keep up with the "neighbors" with FasTrack. The "neighbors" had a head start and did a better job. Let's face it, a serious modeler is going with Gargraves, Curtis or Atlas O. Lionel should have made improvements to the 027 and O tubular track and switches. Even K-Line has seen fit to improve the looks and operation of their 027 switch.

Based on the info above, I doubt even many 027 modelers will be ripping up their track to replace it with FasTrack. Despite the negative implications of being an 027 operator... heaven forbid!!

"D'oh!"

[Anonymous]

According to Lionel's "Inside Track" the official publication of the Lionel Railroader club, Winter 2003 issue, page 3 and continued on page 10, in an article entitled, "Lionel: State of the company," William L. Bracy states:

QUOTE: "The reception to FasTrack was the big surprise for us, as we had believed our new track system with built-in ballast was best employed by new model railroaders, who may build their first loop around the Christmas tree on a carpet in the family room. Little did we know how powerful would be the reaction from experienced Lionel operators, who immediately saw the potential for FasTrack on existing benchwork, especially once the different diameter curves and remote switches become available in the first half of 2004. Now everyone is up in arms to have us deliver all 40 FasTrack products ASAP, so they can customize their existing layouts with the latest track system from Lionel." END QUOTE.

Well Mr. Bracy and the gang, I hope you read this thread and others like it on this forum. The new broom may have swept clean at first, but as this thread shows us, the new system is terrible with sound quality! I want to hear my railsounds that I have paid dearly for and my wife wants no part of a "roller skating rink" in her home--she kind of likes to be able to hear the TV at night. With FasTrack's current configuration, this is not the system of the future.

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I have been using an 8-½ loop of FasTrack since Christmas, and I love it. The only drawback is that trains must be operated slow, or the hollow rails & hollow roadbed act like a megaphone. Secondly, these California houses don’t have basements for building large layouts, so we need some 027 FasTrack. Those are the only two drawbacks that I can see, but on the other hand, the good looks of FasTrack is comparable to O Scale track. In fact, it’s the only 3-rail track that even comes close to O Scale. Now-a-days, with all the talk about Scale 3-rail trains, I think folks will start looking at the size of the railroad ties. It seems to me that FasTrack will be a big step in the direction towards O Scale 3-rail?

Richard

[Anonymous]

But, and I repeat, if you want to hear your railsounds, you won't want this stuff. I wouldn't invest in it unless you don't care about sounds.