Fortification of Tubular Rails

[Wes Whitmore]

Best thing about poly adhesive is that is expands while it cures, filling any voids you might have missed.  I use it with the speaker boxes that I make.  Much better than glue, and you don't have to go back and silicon the joints to guarantee an airtight joint.  Sounds like it works well for fortification as well.
Wes

[cnw1995]

Dang, this is brilliant, David. I definitely have to try this out indoors.

[FJ and G]

thanks for replies; here's update:

 

Stringing wire from Lowe’s through the tubes (4 strand braided 20 gauge wire). If you are running 027 rails indoors, this would make them conduct better (I think). So instead of running a bus wire around the underside of the rails, the bus could be inside the tubes! Less wiring mess



Since the rails are solid, I had to invent a new connector. I used a metal tie, flattened the prongs, sliced it in half, flipped it upside down, then using the pliers, I bent together the edges of the tie so the rails are secure. Solder is optional.



Here’s my escape I constructed for 32mm and 45mm. I’m 99% done with the escape at the other end. The reason for multigauge is to get both gauge tracks across a 30+ foot concrete arch bridge



Here’s a tipper I did a while back. To get the rusty effect, I tore the edges to make them jagged and spray painted black and rust together so the colors merged. This one is resin-cast.



on Saturday I made a new tipper using a completely different technique. Instead of resin in the squish mold (2 RTV molds forced together), I squired PL construction adhesive into the mold and pressed together.

I developed an additional painting technique for this bucket (which will be part of a skip like 1st photo). I did the same paint technique then waited 10 minutes. While the skip was still tacky, I dribbled dried clay (red and yellow) that I got from my backyard (which is mostly rocks and clay). The tiny particles embedded into the tacky paint. I rubbed them in different directions with my finger to get patterns



construction adhesive used to make the skip and used to squirt inside the 027 rail (where the braided wire was inserted). The rails are now sturdy enough to step on without collapsing!



Here’s what an 027 rail looks like after 3 years, nasty, ugly, horrible; just the effect I’m looking for as I lay rails that rust.



the flowers are bloomin



BB definitely has that up to no good look in her eyes



while the ribs are cooking beside the railroad tracks, the hound’s tongue is hanging out with dribbles of drool. Shorty after walking inside the house to get a cold one, one rack of ribs disappears

[lionelsoni]

How about something like this, David:

http://www.metalsdepot.com/products/hrsteel2.phtml?page=channel&LimAcc=%20&aident=&gclid=CKu_7LjZ1ZICFQs8IgodbmfE7A

The 1 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/8 looks like it might be very close to 1 1/4 inches on the inside, assuming that the flanges are close to the 1/8-inch thickness of the web.

If you need ties, you could fake them with short (1 1/4-inch) pieces inside the channel, aligned with full length (2 to 2 1/4-inch) pieces notched to fit under the channel.

[goodness]

Seeing as you are using battery power and RC, I would think you do not need three rail track. Perhaps you could make your own 2 rail track using heavy steel rectangular cross section long bars that you weld to steel plates. The guage between the rails would be the same as tubular ...the distance between the wheel flanges. The width of the rails could be as wide and strong as needed to prevent crushing. Since the rails are not webed, they will not crush. And the base steel plate could be as thick as you want to add strength. The track and plate bed could be mounted on concrete roads for even more strength.

Or you could do "street running" with steel or concrete on both sides and the middle of the track with track Grooves for the wheel flanges. That way any weight will not damage the rails because the steel or concrete (not the rails) suports the weight.

Seems like a lot of work and expence. Maybe foot bridges over tubular track would be easyer. Or just protect the areas subject to the "weight".

Or just replace the crushed sections when they get damaged.

Hard to figure since you do not state the cause of the problem.

Paul Goodness

[wrmcclellan]

On my tubular track I glued extra wood ties between the tinplate ties. The extra support underneath the rails keeps them from bending.

Roy,

That's a great idea.  What kind of glue did you use?  Did you just press the wood to the bottom of the rail?

Sorry for the delay, I was out of pocket a few days. I used hot melt glue.

[FJ and G]

Here's my paltry initial attemps. I did use clay plugs for the ends, btw.

The resin was 7 years old so curing was difficult!

Everything went really well (not labor intensive at all).

Here's how I'm going to improve the next batch and eliminate the "neck" weak point. I'm going to use a chisel to spread the rails apart the entire length and then fill with resin in effect, forming a solid rail. If the results turn out ok, millions of people with tubes across the country might want to try their own experiments. Just kidding.

 Anyway, doing these experiments is lots of fun. Why buy ready made steel rails when you can do expriments! :-) And have more fun than a barrel of monkeys.

I used the excess resin to fill some molds (see background)

Meanwhile, I attached ties to concrete arches using Gorilla Glue. I did it in a driving rain so I didn't have to add any water! Tonight, I'll shave the excess that oozed out and perhaps make some more Solid Tubular rails. Hey, is that (solid tubular) an oxymoron or moronic?

[Anonymous]

One method not touched upon might be to lay in solder using a plumbers torch to evenly heat the rails.  Could be as simple as sliding the appropriate amount of solder inside the rail tube and heating so that the solder wicked into the neck.  Maybe worth some experimentation.

Bruce Webster

[jwse30]

-plug ends with clay, even surface with level and pour resin in (or epoxy). Obviously, taking all precautions regarding spills.

 

I would think you'd want to plug the ends with your rail joiners, to make it easier to assemble.

Since you're not using the center rail (or the outer ones) to conduct electricity, you can take some junk track, pull the ties off, and add them to your sections you are going to use to strengthen them up.  Most people that have been in this hobby for awhile have a box or 6 of old used track that they are never going to use; perhaps you're one of us?

Just a couple of ideas,

 

J White

 

[lionelsoni]

Number 10 AWG (.102-inch diameter) fits inside an O31 rail, 12 AWG (.081) inside an O27 rail; however, 4-square-millimeter wire (.089) is a better fit inside O27.

[trigtrax]

It might be tricky to insert Steel Wire through the 10/11" length of rail. If I were attempting this I'd look to monofiliment fishing line. Slightly undersized and coated with glue. When it sets it'll keep the tubes from deforming.

[Eriediamond]

Just an after thought on what I think I understand here. Trains powered by on board batteries and R/C control. Rails not carrying electrical power. Want rusty rails. Want rails re-enforced because of rust weakening same. I can understand likeing rust (natural type). Here's the after thought. Top of rails will still need to be rust free I would think. Friction between the rolling stock wheels and that natural rust will, in my opinion greatly increase the load on the locomotive and batteries and train length will be reduced. But then one never knows until one tries. Ken

[LocoPops]

On my tubular track I glued extra wood ties between the tinplate ties. The extra support underneath the rails keeps them from bending.

Roy,

That's a great idea.  What kind of glue did you use?  Did you just press the wood to the bottom of the rail?

 

[stubbsO]

Here's what I don't understand with what your trying to do. If your worried about the up-right portion of the rail getting bent over, no matter what you do to the top of the rail itself will be worthless for the rest of it. I can understand rebar type stuff inside the rail itself, but the up right would seem to me that you need to like take the track apart and install some heavy metal in there and put it all back together. That seems waaaaayy to labor intensive to be worth it to me. Maybe Im totally missing your point but solid rail sounds the wayy you need to go. That or just don't go near the track with fat feet?

[palallin]

 I'm planning on using the tubes outdoors as I wanted something that rusts naturally (solid rails as sold unfortunately don't rust). I'm using r/c and battery of course.

 

Why not use steel rail?  It rusts quite naturally, will last many years, and will easily survive your feet.

[wrmcclellan]

Looking forward to the results of the new project!

[FJ and G]

Hi all & THANKS!! This is just the feedback I was hoping for!

Brent, 

Right you are. Hadn't even considered the neck of the rail as being the failing point. Your other ideas are really noteworthy!

Roy,

I'm removing rails and placing on wood ties. How right you are about tie spacing. Hadn't considered that. Come to think of it, the failures in the past resulted with just using the widely spaced metal ties (some manufacturers have many metal ties but others fewer). The other thing to do would be to wear larger shoes to distribute the weight better

 

Incidentally, I try to occasionally post photos in the Sunday photofun and occasionally visit the coffee pot.

 

Another incidentally,

 

I've left some 027 tubes outside for 3 years and not surprisingly, they are rusty. I was even more surprised they didn't rust all the way thru! I'm planning on using the tubes outdoors as I wanted something that rusts naturally (solid rails as sold unfortunately don't rust). I'm using r/c and battery of course.

 

OK, so I'm deviant and like rust; what can I say? I just can't help myself.

 

Incidentally #3, I'm thinking that after a number of years when the rails do rust, packing something inside like resin might make them last that extra year.

 

Again, thank you kindly. I'll post photos when I soon begin the process 

[wrmcclellan]

Hi Dave - good to see you over here again with a new project.

I have a question. Are you using the tubular rails with the tinplate ties or without? In other words, what will be supporting the rails?

On my tubular track I glued extra wood ties between the tinplate ties. The extra support underneath the rails keeps them from bending. The only thing I can think of to make the rail itself stronger is a steel rod down the tubular portion. However, the rod can only be about 0.100 diameter.

I measured an O gauge track pin at approx 0.105".

AWG sizes of steel wire to try would be #10 (0.1019") or #11 (0.0907")

An 0-27 track pin is approx 0.095".

AWG sizes of steel wire to try would be #11 (0.0907") or #12 (0.0808")

Hobby shop rods would typically be 3/32" as an available size.

So this may all be off point if your only desire is to prevent the tube itself from deforming, then epoxy inside the tube may be the easiest thing to do (seal the rail bottom with tape?).

None of this addresses keeping the web of the rail from deforming.

[Anonymous]

Dave,
I don't think the rails themselves are the problem. From my experience the problem is the vertical rail under the tube. Once pressure is applied the vertical rail fails and the rest of the metal crushes under foot (yep stepped on a couple sections in my time).

I really like your ideas, but I think you would be better trying something with O and not O-27 (you didn't stipulate this). What I would do:

1. insert rods into the rails.
2. Tack weld the rail underneath between the 'ties'
3. Case cement ties
4. Remove the rails from the 'ties'
5. Attach the rails to the cement ties

If you can find a way to cast the rails into the ties that would be even better.

[palallin]

The rebar might help--piano wire suggests itself--but I cannot imagine that either resin or bondo would have the mechanical strength to resist distortion in the ways you're concerned with.  I say this, however, with the proviso that I am NOT a mechanical engineer and stand ready to be corrected by someone who is or who has had success with the methods.

[FJ and G]

again, I didn't want to get into the reasons for using tubular to veeer the msg off track. Pouring resin doesn't take long if the rails are lined up on a suitable surface for pouring; updsidedown, of course3; that's just one idea. If no other ideas or thoughts I'll proceeed with experimentation; just thought I'd solicite any comments

 

[jjm]

Your ideas sound like they might take a lot of time to implement, and they still might not succeed.  A simpler solution might be to use solid rail track, though even the plastic on that might crack if someone steps on it.

 In general, if there is enough risk of force that it would flatten tubular track, I suspect that any track, stengthened or not, would suffer.

[FJ and G]

not with ruffage, mind you. I'm thinking of ways to perhaps make them a bit stronger. For those who've run Lionel, K-Line etc tubular rails on the floor and accidentally stepped on the rails, you may have noticed that they can actually squash!

I have several reasons for wanting to fortify the tubular rails I have but don't want to go into all the details right now as it will veer the thread off-track. (I'll explain them later).

Anywho, here's some out-loud thinking:

-plug ends with clay, even surface with level and pour resin in (or epoxy). Obviously, taking all precautions regarding spills.

-insert thin rebar thru tubes

- force Bondo in

Anyway, just a few thoughts. I'm going to experiment this weekend; just wondering if anyone has any thoughts re: this.

I'm not sure, btw, if a 2nd benefit would be to make them more silent. My main concern is strength.

Hope I've been able to explain my thinking on this