Hot Engines!

[Anonymous]

The bottom trucks of my little K-Line S-2 are getting way too hot for a finger touch. I’m pulling 10 ea of those K-Line traditional size tank cars plus a small caboose for about a half hour, and then it seems to be getting too hot. Is that little engine going to burn up?

This is a new engine with about 15 hours on it, and my old S-2 from 1994 runs cool while pulling the 10 tank cars. I could double-head the train with the two S-2s, but they have different paint. Besides, one S-2 pulling that string of tank cars looks more realistic.

Thanks,

Richard

[Roger Bielen]

Sounds like the motor is overloaded and the heat is conducting to the trucks. Have you lubricated the motor, gears, etc. before using the engine? How does the power need for this engine compare to your other one since they sound like they're basicly the same?

The only thing I can relate to is an old Lionel #50 gangcar that runs hot, and I know that it needs an overhaul, but it has many many hours on it.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Richard, your problem has me a little curious, as I am not familiar the latest K-line designs.

• What type of motor or motors does this engine have?
• Are they the small can motors mounted in the trucks?
• Are the trucks metal or plastic?
• Did the train slow down the longer it ran?
• Are the rollers and roller springs hot too?
• Did you SMELL anything funny when this happened?
• Do the cars feel heavy if you pull them by hand?
• If the engine has two motors, are both hot?

As Roger pointed out this type of behavior is not uncommon for post war style open frame motors, but in a new locomotive I can understand your surprise and alarm. This does not sound like friction from the drive train, but that could cause the motor to have to work harder. I'm wondering if K-line's design is not allowing enough air to circulate near the motor, and causing it to overheat. Be careful, because if it gets too hot, nearby plastic components could melt. This may sound strange, but sometimes your ears or your nose can detect a problem before you can see or feel it.

[Anonymous]

Now that I almost burned up that little engine, I’m giving it close attention. It actually gets too hot after pulling those 11 cars after 15 minutes. I haven’t heated the plastic trucks to where it’s too hot to touch, but there is a thin copper strip up inside the truck that gets too hot for a finger touch. I could smell that electronic hot smell, and the engine ran slower and slower as it got hot. My boy and I joined the local Lionel Railroad Club, and we plan to run these K-Line engines as exhibits. So naturally, I don’t want the engine to burn up in front of the crowd.

I experimented with two K-Line S-2 switchers double headed for 15 minutes, and then finger tested both engines for heat. The 10 year old S-2 was slightly warm, and the new S-2 was starting to get hot. I had to hold my finger on the copper strip for a few seconds for it to become uncomfortable. Double heading the engines would probably run cooler, but one engine is SP black widow, and the other is ATSF red war bonnet. Yeeks! And, pulling a string of black SP tank cars.

I plan to tear down the S-2s for the brianel027 spring-loaded front truck modification. Maybe Brian will jump in with some more tricks?

Richard

[Big_Boy_4005]

Richard, I'm sorry I ask a lot of questions, but I want to help you solve your problem. I can't be there to see for myself, so everything that you can tell me helps. It is starting to sound like a lack of roller tension is causing the problem, but first make sure that the motor is not the source of the heat.

I have an SW2 just a little older than your old one, and I'm guessing that the new one doesn't look too different as far as the trucks are concerned. Does the new engine have 2 motors and 4 rollers, 2 on each truck?

Resistance causes heat. When the electricity does not have a smooth path through which to flow, heat is often the result.

That copper strip should be acting like a spring and pressing the rollers against the rail.
If the tension is too low the rollers will bounce or slide, and that could be the source of the heat.

If you are planning tearing it apart anyway, try bending that strip a little to increase the roller pressure and see if that helps.

[brianel027]

Okay, familiar territory for me. To start on the K-Line S-2, the motors are truck mounted DC can motors just like the ones Lionel uses in their truck mounted motors. The trucks on the S-2 are plastic.

Richard I had the same thing happen once on one engine and only one truck. I ended up replacing the motor. I tried running the unit with the "bad" motor truck alone, no circuit board and on DC power and still noticed the slight burning smell that I suspect you are smelling too. Yes, the motor along with the copper strip below the motor (the strip in insulated from the motor and connects to the center rail roller pickups) both get hot. I think the strip gets hot just because of the close proximity to the motor. I'm not sure what's causing this... I suspected it was just a bad motor. I also tried a substitute circuit board with no change.

I had noticed a vast amount of inconsistancy with K-Line plastic trucks... some work fine and some simply don't. I was once told that K-Line has used slightly rejected parts in order to save money. On the couplers, I would say this is not surprise. There's far too much inconsistancy - sometimes on cars made during the same period. It's possible there's a similar thing going on here with the can motors.

There are some things you can trouble-shoot Richard. Take the shell off the frame (4 screws in each corner). Remove the twister that bundles together the wires and carefully look at all the wires to be sure there is no break. Especially where the wires come up from the motor truck through the hole in the frame. Also remove the masking tape over the wire ends and check the wires... look to see if it looks like a wire is not making a good connection.

The reason I suspect motors and some inconsistant quality is that I have experimented with running some of these locos (along with the Budd cars and Alco FA's) with single motors and a dummy truck. Some run well and some don't. And again, I've noticed some inconsistant running on some of my S-2's and Alcos... which is why I tried using DC power to run them, removing circuit boards. And there was a marked improvement in these locos.

BEAR IN MIND, in defense of K-Line, these locos were never intended to be high-quality runners. That's not saying that K-Line doesn't want happy customers. But these engines were once the mainstay of the starter sets... entry level units... the first train set.
ALSO BEAR IN MIND that the design of these locos is not too far off from many Lionel was making at the same time. Though the components are different. You can use Lionel circuit boards in these K-Line locos but they are wired differntly. I suspect that the Lionel motors are slightly better quality.

The reason I suspect this is because I also have a bunch of single motored Industrial Switchers that receive many of the same modifications and alterations I make to my K-Line units and I haven't had any trouble with them.

I have a whole fleet of K-Line S-2's and only had this problem with one. Although my nephew has a Lionel 8700 Rock Island Docksider. I did some work to the little guy and improved it. But it also has a DC can motor. And we've noticed when he runs long trains (the engine now will pull 15 cars no problem) the motor gets a little warm. Certainly not the burning hot that the K-Line one did, but I've adviced my nephew to stick with shorter trains. Besides that's what the Docksider pulled anyways (he love's it cause it's red and I got it for 95¢... I've taught him well to respect a bargain!).

Richard, since you've just bought this do you still have a receipt? Call or e-mail K-Line with the problem and maybe they'll have you send in the loco. K-Line has been good about this kind of thing in the past. And don't let it discourage you from other similar K-Line engine purchases. The K-Line Alco Fa looks eons better than the Lionel counterpart and is a nice little unit. The recent UP and Santa Fe ones looks very nice. I've been tempted by the UP one, but I'm just an northeast US modeler. Along with the MP-15 and the S-2, they all use very similar parts. The MP-15 does have die-cast trucks and the couplers are a little longer. Otherwise the S-2 and Alco FA (as well as the older Budd cars) use many identical parts.

You might ask why I don't buy a better quality loco? I really like the small size of the K-Line S-2. It's looks right at home on my layout running alone or in a multiple lashup. They are bargain priced. The detail level is simple yet rugged. And they are easy to make small improvements to which greatly enhance their looks and running. With their decent prices, I can have locos in all my favorite roads... and in cases like the Lehigh Valley, all the various schemes like the Cornell red, the yellowjacket scheme and the snowbird scheme. Likewise with the CNJ and the New Haven - another 2 of my favorite fallen flags. Of course I have them in Conrail, CSX and Norfolk Southern too!

[Anonymous]

Thanks,

You guys gave me plenty to work on tomorrow. Brian, what catalog did you see the K-Line FA painted in Union Pacific? I just purchased a new handsome looking Santa Fe war bonnet FA, and those motors run cool pulling 5 coaches. K-Line must have different vendors for those small can motors? I really like my K-Line FA, and would like another painted for UP. There should be a FA review article in next month’s Classic Toy Train magazine.

I prefer the large AC motor in my 1996 vintage Lionel GP-9 with TMCC. But of course, there is only room for one motor with all the electronic boards inside. And believe it or not, the little K-Line S-2 will almost pull as many cars as the large GP-9.

The little S-2 that gets too hot will pull 5 cars okay, and only gets warm when lashed-up with another S-2 or Alco FA pulling 11 cars. Maybe that’s all I going to get out of that one?

Richard

[brianel027]

Richard, I'm not looking at catalogs right now, but I think 2000 was the last year for the UP. It was in a A-A set, both units with 2 motors, plus a caboose came with it. There's one for sale on ebay right now... just one single A unit. They did a nice job on those. Beware there exists a much earlier K-Line Alco in UP done around 1990-1 not nearly as nice looking. They pop up on ebay too. I believe the better looking ones started around 1997 with the "Tracks Across the US" passenger sets. There was the UP as well as Southern and also a very nice looking Rock Island set.

You'll find early K-Line Alcos in PRR (molded green & brown colored versions), WP, Southern (molded green color), UP (molded yellow color), US Army (molded drab green color) and others.

Newer ones that were painted were in PRR (very nice tuscan set), NYC, Southern, Long Island (unpowered), Erie, Rock Island, UP, Wabash, Southern Pacific, AT&SF, Texas Special, New Haven (very nice looking, uncataloged), Seaboard Coast Line and others. K-Line has done many uncataloged engines for clubs, organizations (like the TCA) and companies. S-2's were done for many grocery and convenienve store chains, as well as in Pepsi-Cola for Train Express. Cataloged S-2's were also done for Burlington Route, B&O, Alaska, Chessie, C&NW (2 schemes), Lehigh Valley, NYC, PRR (2 versions), Santa Fe (2 schemes), Western Pacific, and Southern Pacific.

Again, I'm going from memory here. My catalogs are in another room, so maybe I'm forgetting one.

Beats me why they don't do their Alcos in other roads? Money I'm sure. That and the trend towards scale, scale, and more scale. (K-Line did reissue a CSX MP-15 with blue painted trucks in 2001 that looked awful). I did an Alco in the CSX orange maintence scheme that looks great. And I did another in the NS operation lifesaver scheme. Plus a couple in Conrail. And another in the Lehigh snowbird scheme. K-Line has made their own Conrail Alco FA that is uncataloged and for CR employees only. They pop up on ebay every once in a great while, but usually with the set - and they tend to be pricey.

Like I said, most of mine run fine and can pull trains as long as I please. I think you just got a bum one. If it is just the motor as I suspect, you could do the job yourself. BUT you have to be real careful getting the coupler detached from the truck frame. The "T" hook design they use is dumb and should have been changed years ago. I made a prototype that worked and suggested the change years ago to someone no longer there to no avail.

I'm trying to remember but I'm almost positive I used a Lionel motor from a Lionel parts dealer in my K-Line loco and it worked. The motors are around $7 in price be they from K-Line or elsewhere.

[lionelsoni]

Consider that the "S" in S2 stands for "six" (hundred horsepower). The prototype would not have been able to pull more than a handful of cars; so maybe it's unreasonable to expect to pull very many with the model.

[Anonymous]

Bob, Yes, I’m pushing it with 10 tank cars, but with two can motors it should handle the load without heating up. My other two K-Line engines will run cool for more than an hour pulling those same tank cars. The engine in question will also run cool, but only when pulling 5 oil cars plus a tiny red caboose. That engine also runs cool when lashed-up with the other S-2. At present I like the Lionel stuff, especially the large AC motor in my GP-9. Those 10 new K-Line $15 tank cars look snazzy, but man is the quality rough.

Brian, Western Depot still has one of those K-Line Union Pacific FA sets with caboose. If both A units are powered for $174.95 then it’s a good deal. I have two of those little K-Line cabooses, and I remove the white plastic (milk glass) insert. They look a lot better with open windows. I also removed the bright lamp that make the caboose look like a pumpkin. But, I’m still looking for a dim lamp for those. Wonder if I could use a resistor as a voltage drop?

Richard

[Big_Boy_4005]

NO Bob, I'm sorry, but the "S" in S-2 stands for SWITCHER. ALCO made an entire series of SWITCHER models S-1 thru S-7 and S-10 thru S-13. The S-2 had a 1000HP rating. My source for this is The Second Diesel Spotter's Guide, published by Kalmbach.

[brianel027]

Richard, yes both units of the UP you mention are motorized. The single A unit I mentioned is still on ebay. And ironically the uncataloged Conrail ones are also there now, as well as the other uncataloged MP-14 "Safety Award" Set.

And your S-2 should handle 10 cars in a snap, regardless of what the prototype did. I know I've run 15 car trains with mine. Even my revamped Lionel Industrial Switcher will haul 10 cars with ease.

On the cabooses Richard, K-Line uses a 14v bulb in those cabooses. The problem is that K-Line uses white styrene plastic for their cars. The cabooses therefore should be primed first, but most are not. Some are done with silver paint sprayed inside the car. This is a drag too on any open car that is painted red. I bought the K-Line CNJ Classic Gondola from 1992 and ended up repainting it again to CNJ (and doing it right) because I hate cars that are not opaque... talk about cheap looking. Instead of looking for a resistor, you should paint the inside of the caboose. I can talk you through it if you want. PS. the window insert in the caboose does help to filter or distribute the light more evenly through the whole caboose. One neat thing you can do is to cut out a little section in front of one window, and then have a little train figure with his arm out the window.

Actually, I found a little Daffy Duck figure and he's waving out one of my cabooses. Little did anyone at Warner Bros. realize that Daffy was moonlighting on the Lehigh Valley Railroad.

[lionelsoni]

Whoops. I haven't seen the model; and I took it for an EMD, the SW2 that Lionel first claimed the NW2 to be.

[Anonymous]

Brain, you’re a genius, thanks. I install the little spring that you suggested, and now the front truck of the S-2 stays down on the track at full throttle. I used Orchard Supply Hardware parts. (9086802 ¼ size Nylon Flat Washer and Century Compression Spring C-670) I cut the spring to exactly 3 coils, and installed it with the factory end towards the Nylon Flat Washer and metal frame of the S-2. The cut end of the spring hangs down into the plastic truck, but not far enough to enterer with the coupler.

I also did Big_Boy’s suggestion of bending down the copper strip that puts tension on the third rail roller, and the engine runs a lot smoother.

The heat problem is still there, but that little engine will pull 5 cars all day. When pulling the 10 tank cars it still heats up, and will finally slow down to a craw at full throttle. Guess that is the problem with all can motors when they heat up? Seems like the DC motor tightens up when hot.

Part of the problem is that those old style K-Line trucks don’t roll along nice like the new Lionel Boxcar that my mother in law gave him for Christmas. With a little finger tap the Lionel car will roll down the track quite a ways. The older style K-Line trucks has some friction. However, the K-Line trucks are actually spring loaded. The tank cars are K-Line K-6314 @ $15 ea from Western Depot. They look great, but there is at least one small quality defect somewhere on each of the 10 cars. I like the looks of the old style K-Line trucks. They look more railroady than the shiny new stuff.

Richard

[brianel027]

Richard, just a drop of a heavy hobby oil at each point of the truck where the wheel sits in the truck frame will cure your problem. Labelle makes some metal needle noise oil bottles. The #102 Gear Oil will work well for lubricating the trucks. Or the Hob-E-Lube #655 which comes with a plastic needle nose. You can probably buy a boxed kit with several different grades of hobby lubricant... well worth the investment.

This is something I find most die-cast trucks need at one time or another. The MTH metal trucks in particular need the oil right away when you buy the car. The Lionel die-cast trucks and the Train-19 trucks seem to be the best, but even they can sometimes need the drop of lubricant. I've had a few cars with the die-cast trucks that don't roll well - the drop of oil will cure that!

Also try lubricating you K-Line engine. The side opposite the motor gears... you'll have to bend the truck frame a little with a screwdriver, but you may want to put a drop of oil right on the point of the motor where the armature comes through the plastic end casing. It's tough to actually see. but with the metal needle nose oiler you can feel it. The plastic end casing is a little bit higher - sticks out from the motor a little more - where you want to put the drop of oil. Maybe this will help too. You may even sparingly want to lubricate the points of the engine axles that ride through the truck frame. Look at your S-2... you'll see just behind each wheel where the axle rides through a bearing of the inner truck frame/motor housing. Use the Labelle #102 again. Especially since it sounds to me like although you bought the engine new, it has been sitting around for a while. Make sure the lubricant looks fresh on the motor gears too since the engine is probably an older inventory item.

Also make sure your center rail roller pick-ups turn freely and easily. I know the repair manuals advice against it, but when necessary I will work a drop of oil into the rivet that holds the actual roller into the pickup assembly. You may also want to try a spray lubricant cleaner for the pickup roller if it doesn't move freely. Sometimes taking a pair of needle-nose pliers and gently working apart the outer assembly that actually holds the roller will help.

Just some more trouble shooting tips. If you want to spray paint that caboose interior, email me and I'll send you my phone # and I can talk you through it on the phone in a few minutes... that will take care of the "glow." You could also just brush an acrylic hobby paint like primer gray, black or silver on the caboose interior. Use water base and keep a wet towel handle to wipe the window sill interiors. Note there is a little bit of an art to removing those caboose shells from the frame the way K-Line attaches them... I can tell you how to fix that too.