Tubular vs solid Rail

[dougdagrump]

I am considering a new larger layout that must accomodate the newer engines with the newer electronics as well as older ones with magnetraction. I had always used the Lionel but was wondering about the solid rail, any comparisons, reviews etc. Also wear and tear on traction tires ?
I went to the San Diego Model Railroad Museum last week and they used the Atlas O, donated, and it looked super. Maybe it was me but it also sounded quieter at the rail joints.
If you like trains, regardless of gauge, you will love the San Diego Model Railroad Museum. I know it is a shameless plug.

[brianel027]

If you have the money Doug, Atlas O is IMO the best track out there with a good selection to boot. The flat rail suface of Atlas O works better with engines with traction tires. I can't imagine any extra wear because of that though.

Certainly with the success of Atlas O, the stuff must work well with all different types of trains. I certainly have not hear complaints. Not like a few years ago when Lionel revised the O Gauge switch and everyone seemed to have problems.

I do like 027 track, for space and economic considerations. In the back of my mind I've thought about Gargraves for the next layout... maybe mixing Gargraves switches with 027 sectional track. IF I had the money to spend, I would probably go with the Atlas O. Even as a 027 guy, the Atlas O sure looks nice in cut pieces on a flat car for a M.O.W. train.

[Chris F]

Atlas O track has been highly praised, and deservedly so. However, the most popular kind uses nickel-silver rails that do not work with Magne-Traction. There is a version that uses steel rails, but it is not offered in as many versions as the nickel-silver type.

To see what is available, go to www.atlaso.com .

[Anonymous]

Dear dougdagrump,
FOR THE LOVE OF THE BIG BOYS: GET SOLID RAIL!!!! (Someone who writes in all lower case is going to yell at me for that[:)]).

It looks more realistic. I personally think it is easier to clean and a lot of other stuff. I myself am planning on using a combination of Ross Custom Switches and GarGraves for my new layout. Even MTH RealTracks is great, especially for around the Christmas Tree layouts, although it has its problems.

And you're right--the San Diego Model Railroad Museum is WORLD CLASS!

I hope I have helped,
Daniel

[spankybird]

HI dougdagrump,
I guess some of it comes to cost. There is planty of used and almost new tube track on market. I use 027 tube track on my layout. I have added extra ties. Tube track can be pick up used at $0.25 to $0.50 a peice as compaired to $3.50 for new Realtrax. I have not seen much used track other than tube. I have MTH Realtrax on my xmas layout. Have not had any problems with it, but this layout does not have any grades on it and I only use engines with tracton tires. I have not notice excessive wear on the tires with tube track.

[dougdagrump]

After doing some net surfing it doesn't appear that the Atlas "O" is very cheap, even at some of the so-called discount sites. All of the main lines would have to be O track as opposed to 027 since the majority of my new equipment is O scale. Maybe use the high priced stuff on the mains and the tube rail on sidings, yards, etc. The nickel/silver is nice but if you aren't running traction tires forget it.
What about conductivity at the rail joints with solid rails, what is used in place of the pins for tube type rails? Do they have rail clamps similar to the "G" rails?

[wallyworld]

For flexibility in layout design as well as for the sheer variety of product available,I'd go with Atlas. I invested quite abit in Realtrax and have been disapointed with it's lack of development and I think a company like Atlas who really set an early standard in HO already offers nearly every component you could imagine. I would shy away from manufacturers who offer track systems as a secondary product line.

[brianel027]

Doug, also remember that 027 sectional track is also made in a 42" and 54" radius. Marx at one time made it in 34" radius. The main problem with running modern more scale sized stuff on 027 track is the switches - in particular the housing. The new K-Line 027 switches have a much smaller housing: see Walt Rapp's topic on "K-Line switches." You could also use Gargraves switches or get mating pins and use O switches.

Price is a consideration on track. The Atlas stuff is premium quality and price too. On one hand, it's said good track is worth the investment. On the other hand, Lionel has just lowered prices on 027 sectional track and switches.

I guess this is why Gargraves has been so popular for all these years - offering realism, flexible track sections and reasonable prices. If you can't afford the Atlas O and want something better than 027, Gargraves track is well worth looking into. Just buy the newer switches. Gargraves made redesign improvements on them a few years ago. Of course there's nothing wrong with Lionel O track either. IN this case, stay away from the redesigned O switch that came out around 1996... I've heard nothing but complaints on them.

[lionelsoni]

K-Line also makes O72 track with the O27 profile.

[jkerklo]

Among my criteria for a track system is the ablilty to use isolated outside rails, isolate track sections, either for switching center rail power or using outside rail blocks,
and making electrical connections easily. The newer track systems I have looked at don't seem to pay much attention to these requirements. Maybe so they can sell their IR units.


JK

www.Three-Rail.com

[spankybird]

MTH makes track with insulated outside rails.

[Anonymous]

For cost considerations I'm sticking with the tubular stuff. What would be a good method to smooth out the joints to minimize wear on pick-ups. I occassionally run my old Marx engines and the electrical pick-ups are wearing pretty thin.

[Big_Boy_4005]

I'm not sure how I missed posting on this topic, as track is one of my favorite subjects these days.

As much as I like Atlas track, it sounds like for Doug and now Jkerklo, Gargraves may be the best choice.

By the way, Gargraves is still considered a tubular track, even though it has a more realistic profile. It still takes pins and is formed sheet metal. The only solid rail track is Atlas.

Given the criteria that you have set forth, Gargraves meets them all. Cost, magnatraction, isolated rails, appearence, flexibility, and switch selection when combined with Ross products. Making electrical connections is simple with the use of crimp spade connectors.

[Anonymous]

And let me weigh in here too BB. I think if you stay with Lionel, even with all it's limitations, it's the best course of action. It doesn't wear out the wheels like other track will and it's designed for their engines.

Of course, I am biased here toward Lionel. Have you seen our stock lately? WOW!

[lionelsoni]

David, do you use long straight sections? K-line makes 36-inch pieces in O27 and Lionel makes ones that simulate 4 sections of O27, about 35 inches. I don't know what is available in O31.

If you solder your joints without pins, you can make a very smooth joint; but it takes a little work.

[waltrapp]

Besides replacement cost (I have probably over 400 to 500 pieces of O27 profile rail), the other MAIN reason that I'm sticking with it falls into the durability catagory.

I only have a Christmas layout and therefore and assembling and disassembling it every year. I own some MTH Realtrak (?) that came in a starter set and I had a hard time assembling it. I also wondered how it might hold up to constant and continual yearly abuse required of a temporary layout.

Plus, how do these track 'system's accommodate the 100 off-size pieces that I own? I've seen various sizes but with tubular the off-size possibilities are unlimited.

- walt

[brianel027]

On a slightly "off the track" direction - I had the chance just the other day to see first hand a FasTrack layout on plywood. AND YES, it was very loud! You could hardly hear the Railsounds.

Guess I won't be "Agent FasTrack" any time real soon.

[Anonymous]

brianel027, have you tried using a sound deading material such as cork under the Fastrak to isolate it from the plywood? I personally use cork under my Fastrak pieces and have no problems with loud annoying sounds. My sound effects are loud and clear. This year they are bringing out a whole line of various pieces and various large curve sections.

LionelAL

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by LIONELAL

brianel027, have you tried using a sound deading material such as cork under the Fastrak to isolate it from the plywood? I personally use cork under my Fastrak pieces and have no problems with loud annoying sounds. My sound effects are loud and clear. This year they are bringing out a whole line of various pieces and various large curve sections.

LionelAL

[#welcome]

Welcome to the party Al, you are a little late, but we won't hold that against you.[:D]

This is the CTT encyclopedia of Fastrack, everything we know about the product so far. There are even some pictures along the way, but mostly very interesting reading, including some fairly strong opinoins. One entire volume is devoted to sound issues, but I forget which one.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12436 <---Sound
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11387
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11805
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11722
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11743
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11600

By reading through this material you should get an idea who some of the major contributors to this forum are. Have fun, quiz on Friday[;)][;)][:P][(-D][(-D][:D]

[metajohn]

Doug, et al:
Track is the first and biggest consideration when you are planning any new layout. Truly, all the track systems out there do work. However, some are expensive and some are quite limited.
When I first got back into the hobby about 5 years ago, after not owning any kind of train other than an HO Christmas layout for over 40 years, I thought I wanted O-gauge track just like the nice solidrail plastic ballasted track Atlas was making for HO. But before I had invested in any track I joined a modular operating club which has both a club and a travelling layout -- All their track was HiRail: O-31 tubular rail, black tie, using O-31 and O-72 switches.

[metajohn]

Cont.
They had several reasons for this:
COST & Availability - Hirail and O-27 are compatible, are made by Lionel, K-Line, Gargraves, & Ross, and are the least expensive of all systems. The fact that three major manufacturers compete means that prices stay down. The fact that the stuff has been around since the 1930s means there is tons of it in existence.
Flexibility -- So far the only flexible O-gauge track is the tubular hirail made by Gargraves. Both Lionel and K-Line make 40" straights. Curve diameters are available in 31", 42", 54", 63", 72", 81", 89", 96", and 120" from one or several of the makers. Switches are out there in 31", 42", 72" and all the Ross/Curtiss/Gargraves sizes, plus wyes, three-way, yard ladders,and double crossovers NOT made for any other track systems.

[metajohn]

Cont.
Electrical conduction and Magnetraction are not problems with any HiRail track as long as the center rail is kept isolated and the joiners are tight. All the solid rail systems except the ones that use steel negate the magnetraction feature. Tubular rail is susceptible to high wear at the joints (hence the desirablility of the long straight sections) from the roller and sliding pickups -- I've seen pieces get thin fast if there is a raised bump at the center rail joint.
Wheel wear -- this is a bugaboo for the Pre-war guys who are the only ones I ever hear talk about actually seeing drivers and wheels wear through! This seems to be a more of a function of mileage than the kind of track, but the total contact surface would seems to be a consideration. "Fast angle" wheels were designed to keep speeding trains tightly contected to tubular rails, and top widen the contact area -- I don't know that they work the same way with solid rail systems. And, I've heard from some that the blackened third rail in Gargraves Phantom line wears roller pickups faster than other third rails, but I also heard that they fixed that long ago!

[metajohn]

Cont.
Electrical conduction and Magnetraction are not problems with any HiRail track as long as the center rail is kept isolated and the joiners are tight. All the solid rail systems except the ones that use steel negate the magnetraction feature. Tubular rail is susceptible to high wear at the joints (hence the desirablility of the long straight sections) from the roller and sliding pickups -- I've seen pieces get thin fast if there is a raised bump at the center rail joint.
Wheel wear -- this is a bugaboo for the Pre-war guys who are the only ones I ever hear talk about actually seeing drivers and wheels wear through! This seems to be a more of a function of mileage than the kind of track, but the total contact surface would seems to be a consideration. "Fast angle" wheels were designed to keep speeding trains tightly contected to tubular rails, and top widen the contact area -- I don't know that they work the same way with solid rail systems. And, I've heard from some that the blackened third rail in Gargraves Phantom line wears roller pickups faster than other third rails, but I also heard that they fixed that long ago!

[metajohn]

Cont.
Switches -- this is really big one! There are those who swear by and will use nothing but the O-22 switch until they die! In fact they bitched about it so much that Lionel brought it back (and took the opportunity to actually lower the price!), But I've had no particular problems with the 6-23010/6-23011 O-31L/O-31R switches, and the two small fitter pieces that come with it are great for tailoring the switch into tight spots -- in fact I predict that Lionel will have to bring the 010/011s back when the existing supplies run low just because of that!
The O-72 switches are another matter! If you ever plan to run any scale or big steam engines, passenger cars longer than 15", or Interurban cars longer than 16" you will have to have O-72 switches. K-Line's O-42s look ugly, but work well -- they're just too tight for the big engines. On the other hand the new K-Line SuperSnap switches are the exact same footprint as Lionel's O-72, cost $30 less, and can be modified to connect to regular hirail in about two minutes!

[metajohn]

Cont.
Both of these switches have had a problem with large engines backing through them! Well to be fair, large steamers have had problems backing through lots of switches -- the trailing truck will pop off the track in a heartbeat unless it has more downpreassure than they usually have from the factory, are backed slowly, and the switch has been laid with care: tight joints, no burrs, no bumps, and smoothed edges on the factory cutout relieves. I don't hear anything bad about Ross/Gargraves at all.
Appearance - this is the biggest one of all. O-gauge used to be the province of TOY trains. HiRail was the perfect toy companion track for toy trains and toy tinplate accessories. After 50 years of prototype scale layouts in HO, and the scant few 2-rail DC scale O-gaugers, I guess it was inevitable that scale and prototypical considerations would start creeping into O-gauge as well. If you accept that these are TOYS, and not scale models then HiRail will work for you, otherwise the more scale looking track will fit your eye better.

[Anonymous]

We have an "O" modular layout at our club in Lake Wales. It is "NEW" and just a baby! But we went with Atlas because; it can be run either 2 or 3 rail! We as a club can get a wider range of members to "O" Gauge or Scale. One other thing, Pulling power! We have found that Engines "look" to pull better on the "flat" rail. Cost is higher but out come better.

[Anonymous]

MTH real trax is the way to go I use it for an 18 foot Christmas layout with no problems.The plastic roadbed acts like a sound barrier when used over indoor outdoor carpet. it also mates with tubular track for drawbridges and other acc. that need tub. track. the only problem that I found is the unloading track section does not activate the lionel milk cars new or old properly

[Anonymous]

I have MTH Real Trax in use now. I'm learning that the turnouts don't hold up! I also have a couple Magnetrrac engines that don't have a problem but I did get rid of my grades. I would suggest the tried and true Hi rail track.