Lionel 2332 GG1 derailing problem

[stuartmit]

Continuing from 15 years ago. 

I have three lionel 2340 and 2360 gg1's from 1955:1956. in every case the 4 wheel leading and trailing trucks barely touch the rail head. they frequently seem suspended by a bit; the flanges do reach below the rail heads, the the wheel  doesn't see to touch. it is as though the tabs from which the truck is suspended is a slight bit short.

It is very disapppointing to spend several hundred dollars and be unable to derive some pleasure fromwatch it run. 
I could use a spring reference and source that I could take to a supplier with confidence he will recognize it and be able to ship it to me. 

got a Greenberg show coming up in two weeks in Ediso, NJ. Maybe I can take one of the locos and get the "train doctor" to diagnose.

[RockIsland52]

Hi jimbadil......Welcome to the CTT Forums.  Hope to be hearing more from you.  This is a great place to share and exchange ideas.  No offense taken, but I think if you read this thread from the beginning, your question re general model train train experience was answered.  And one guy has 3 decades of operating a 2332, alone.  Any more experience and he might be pushing daisies.    And no offense to him.   

Jack

[jimbadil]

This is a response to an old message.

 

How much do you know about model trains in general?  If I assume that your knowledge is less than it is, it is not meant to be an insult.

 The 2332, being the first in the GG! line for lionel did not have magnetraction and although it is heavy with the large ballast, it at times will not be as stable on the track as later models.

 That is my two cents. 

[runtime]

Wait a minute, it's the Forum's clock that's 5 hours ahead of EST. Why is that? (sorry to get off topic)

-runtime

[runtime]

Thank you, thank you, you guys are great! So great in fact that, at risk of wearing out my welcome, I' like to throw the following, related, issue out there:

I recently installed a Gargraves switch in my previously all lionel 0-guage layout (wanted a siding between existing sidings, and needed to get parallel on 3.5" centers; used a 98" radius switch and flextrack). I'm pretty sure the Gargraves ripped the sliding shoe off the 2332, as it approached from the open end of the Y (shoe is fixed for now w/superglue). The shoe bumps hard against the black piece of formed metal in the throat of the Y and also against the ends of the center and inner rails which terminate in track connector pins.

My prewar cars also don't like this switch - the flanges are too tall for the groves in the frog, and they ride up over the outside guides because the guide ends don't curve far enough into the center to properly guide the flanges. They will bump and run over the switch, approaching from the open end of the Y, but will derail backing into the new siding.

I've thought about modifying the switch (deepen the grooves on the frog, bend, hammer and file the other stuff). But maybe I should cut my losses and just rip it out. I looked at an Atlas #5, which seems much better quality, but I don't know if it will go parallel at 3.5".

Or is there something else available? Both the Gargraves and the Atlas require 1/8" shims to get up to lionel classic O height (remember I need to get parallel on 3.5" centers).

Regards,

runtime

PS -jakeoregano, where are you, that you 're several hours ahead on me when I'm on USA Eastern time? Just curious. -

[jakeoregano]

bf - I totally agree that even the best sources of parts don't have everything in the pix.  Shopping multiple sources and scavenging is good advice. 

I've had to buy junkers to get some parts, and in fact haven't been able to find some stuff either.  I've been collecting parts to build a GG1 from scratch just for fun.  Over the last 2 years I've collected almost everything except some hard to find screws, and the squawk box assembly.  I'll probably just leave the whole whisltle assembly out of it.  One of these days I may get around to assemble it the thing and get it to run!

2ndly - your suggestion of sandwiching a spring bewteen two washers is a great suggestion.  I may try that myself.  It seems much more elegant and more effective at putting downward force directly on the trucks than trying to weigh down by the brackets.  Great call.

Cheers,

JakeO

[bfskinner]

runtime,

Just a couple more quick points.

(1) The exploded diagrams at the Olsen's site make it easy to locate a postwar part number. However, you must not assume that just because you have found the number, that the part is currently available. It seems courteous to shop Olsen's if you appreciate their hugely helpful website; however, neither Olsen's nor anyone else has anywhere near all the parts that appear in the pictures. You almost always have to shop around some; and frequently you have to scavange parts from a junker, or even fabricate them yourself or with the aid of a machine shop. Sometimes you're just out of luck. The suggested suppliers that have been listed above are all honest, helpful folks. I think it is often a good idea to call rather than email or fax them, because sometimes you get some very good suggestions that way.

(2) I checked my 2332 tonite, and agree with the assembly instructions that Jake provided above. Physics would seem to dictate that it is a whole lot easier to drag that massive lead weight through a switch behind the motor-truck, rather than to try to push it through at the front.

I've had this 2332 for over thirty years, and my memory is slipping rapidly. However, I noticed that somewhere along the line I added a spring which I sandwiched between two relatively stiff Teflon® washers to put an extra downward force on the front pilot truck -- the one without the weight. I cut the washers out of sheet Teflon® stock that I picked up at a plastics supply house. but smooth steel ones would work just as well -- with a little lubrication, perhaps.

So evidently I experienced unreliable tracking over my regular Lionel 022 switches at some point in the past. I have no way to specify the spring I used, except that it is doubtless similar to those that you see on the pilot trucks on steam locos. You might have to experiment. It pretty well cured the derailing problem in my case. Good luck!

[jakeoregano]

Runtime:  I've had good success with Olsen's.  You are correct, the ballast goes on the rear truck.  It has a different bracket than the leading truck to accommodate the ballast.  It also is on the 'motor' end of the unit.  At least that's how mine are.  As far as the wheel being chipped, I would just lightly file the chip to smooth its edge so it has less of a chance of catching on something, unless it's a big enough chip that causes a running issue.  You can get wheels, but it might be a pain to pull 'em off and put new ones on.  I've never done it but you'd probably need a wheel puller.  As for the loose truck wheels:  I checked one of mine and there is a bit of lateral and vertical play on the axles.  I don't know, maybe a 1/16 of an inch or so of slop in any direction.  If yours are really loosey goosey it might be an issue, but my guess is that if you get some weight on those trucks, they'll be less likely to derail.  You might experiment with using some weight strips and double sided tape on the leading and trailing brackets to see if that works.

Keep us posted.

 

[runtime]

Thank you both again. The latest link to Olsens shows me that I'm missing the bracket which is supposed to hold the sound box, and I'm apparently also missing the relay (I have to pull the body again tomorrow). All I remember seeing is the sound box (and I of course didn't know what it was. Also I have no Ballast, as I mentioned.

If you both think Olsens is a good source, I 'll order the parts that I'm missing.

The Lionel service write-up had me thinking the ballast goes on the leading/trailing truck at the motor end?? ( Where it would most effectively provide add'l traction?)

As for my wobbly leading/traing truck wheels: they seem to just be worn, if that's possible. There is a lot of play of the wheel on the axle, not just sliding on the axle, but tilting, relative to the axle. Since the truck is riveted, I guess I would need a new truck or two? Not an appealing prospect

One more thing: one of the outer wheels on the unpowered main truck has a bad chip; should I just try to file it smooth, or should I try to get a replacement wheel (I think these trucks have bolsters that unscrew) ?

This is a redecorated shell (PennCentral), and although I got it cheap, I can't pour money into it like on an original piece. But I want it to be a runner. So non-derailing must precede sounds.

runtime

[bfskinner]

runtime,

Sorry, I botched the link in this morning's response. Here's the one I meant to post:

              http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/2332.htm

 

[jakeoregano]

Bfskinner - good suggestion on Olsen's.  I've gotten many a part from them when I was rebuildin my 671.  They are a good resource, but like Bfskinner said, the horn box is tough to find unless you get one off of evilbay.

Running it in the direction the motorized truck is ahead of the non-motorized truck might help, but if you don't have the ballast, and the wheels are out of gauge, you will still have derailment issues. 

Here's a link to a picture of what the part looks like.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/proddetail.htm?sku=2332-115

Also, you can try this link too:  It's the parts search on Olsen's site.  If you type in 2332 in the search you'll get this page back:

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchpn.htm

If I remember correctly, there is only on weight on the leading truck.  I too am a little concerned about the knocked kneed wheels on your trucks.  They shouldn't be that way. 

[bfskinner]

rumtime,

Try this link:

        http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/2332.htm

   [Edited 2/8/07, 7:25 PM EST, to provide better link.]    

A couple of thoughts:

The ballast (lead weight, part 2332-115) is a single large rounded chunk on the trucks at the other end from the motor trucks. See the diagrams. I know of no other weights.

Be very careful of the horn resonator box. It is quite fragile and, as far as I know, replacements are virtually non-existent.

Try running the GG1 in the opposite direction. (See text on first page of link.)

Slow down when going through switches.

Make sure all the articulated sections can move around smoothly.

As suggested above, check the wheel gauge. I'm a bit concerned about the "knock-kneed" description. Could you be more detailed, or post a photo?

Check the switches themselves. The GG1 has some difficulty getting through switches anyway; and old, worn switches make things more difficult.

Several places have some parts, but not all parts are readily available by any means.

If you have any stripes left, be very careful not to wipe them off.

Olsen's, the providers of these useful diagrams, also sells parts; as do Brasseur's in Saginaw, MI; Jeff Kane at the Train Tender; Mizell trains in Colorado; Dr. Tinker in Massachusetts, and many, many others, some of which are listed in the ads in CTT magazine.

Hope this helps get you started. 

 

 

[Jumijo]

I have also noticed that the wheels on the lead trucks have a lot of play, both in sliding from side to side, and in toeing in (sort of knock kneed). If I push them together, they almost fall between the rails.

I wonder if your wheels are out of gauge. Perhaps they need to be spread wider apart.

Jim 

[runtime]

I just joined the trains.com forum.

Bought a 2332 GG1 at auction last week. It's probably not original inside. I've had the cover off and the ballast looks odd, and the headlights don't work.

But my real issue is how the leading, and even the trailing, trucks derail intermittantly on my 022 switches ( and sometimes elsewhere).

The whole multi-articulating nature of this engine is new to me. There doesn't seem to be any firm foundation for anything. Is this derailing problem common to the engine, or...what could be wrong with mine?

Appreciate any useful feedback,

runtime.

I got the following reply after sending the above, by e-mail, to 'jakeoregano', who I found by perusing some GG1 threads in the forum:

Subject:
2332 running issues

Message:

Welcome to the forum!  Congrats on picking up a GG1.  I love 'em and have
3.  To answer your questions, eventhough I haven't had mine open recently,
there should be a lead weight for ballast.  It's pretty much a rectangular
cube of lead.  Is that the odd shaped ballast you mentioned? 

Even with that I have found that the leading truck is pretty loose, with a lot of
vertical 'play', and does tend to derail.  Also, I have found that
they can sometimes have issues in the switches as you have found.  The trailing
truck seems to work better when the train is hauling some cars, with it under tension
it stays on the track better.  I've never really done anything about it.

May I suggest that you post your question on the forum?  There may be some out there
that have made minor adjustments to the play in the trucks, or maybe some have added
additional weights on the trucks.

I do hope you enjoy your GG1.  As for the other issues you have, if you pick up
a repair manual for post war lionel trains (there on Amazon), it'll show
you the wiring schematics and the sizes of the bulbs etc.

Good luck,

Cheers.
---------------

So..where on/in the trucks should there be lead weights? Where would I get them?

I have also noticed that the wheels on the lead trucks have a lot of play, both in sliding from side to side, and in toeing in (sort of knock kneed). If I push them together, they almost fall between the rails.

I really like the engine. I even like it pulling a bunch of pre-war tinplate cars, whiuch it can easily do,since they are light. Since the GG1 is  a thirties design, it seems to go with the pre-war cars (2 axle 800 series mostly).

Appreciate all useful feedback,

runtime