K-line O27 switches

[waltrapp]

I just bought 4 K-line O27 switches - the 27" variety. I am having 2 issues with them and was hoping for some help. BTW: I have 36 Lionel O27 swithes and the K-line ones are hooked up the same way (pins-wise) so I'm pretty safe saying I didn't screw that up. The wiring is supposed to be extremely friendly too - one of the switch posts has 3 dashes by it matching to one of the controller wires with 3 dashes on it - that's supposed to indicate the ground connection according to the directions.

I set up a test layout - an oval with figure 8. Two of the switches perform correctly but 2 don't. When I first applied power 2 of the switches just clattered back and forth - the swivel part just kept (rapidly) going between straight and divergent. The other 2 were fine. So it was like this: one left was OK but it's partner left went bonkers. one right was OK but it's partner right went bonkers.

On the 2 switches that acted up I had to move the wire with the 3 dashes to one of the other posts and then move the other 2 wires around until I could get things to work. That would seem to be an acceptable solution, but read on.

There are 2 negatives to this wiring arrangement: 1) on the controller the green light shines when the red one should, and vice versa; and 2) for 40 years I have wired my controllers so that if I pu***he controller lever forward the switch switches straight and if I pull the lever backwards the switch switches to the curved track. I have tried all combinations of wiring the 3 controller wires to the 3 switch posts and only one combination will function at all. Are both of these anomolies normal for these switches?

One last comment: this only happens on 1 of the 4 switches: when my diesel rolls thru it the engine bounces badly. I don't visually see anything different with this switch than the other 3 but obviously something is. Any clue on this one?? BTW: my test layout is on a sheet of Homasote so I don't think being out of level is the problem.

As always - thanks - walt

[brianel027]

Hey Walt, are these the brand new-style switches? I'm clueless as to the problem you're having. The clattering you experienced from the on-set sounds like some kind of electrical contact/short problem. Could you reverse the lights on the wiring arrangement that worked but showed wrong colors?
On the one switch where the engine is bouncing through... could there be some flashing in the plastic or a rouch edge? Maybe the swivel rail is loose or has some play in it that is causing the bouncing when the weight of the engine is on it.

[spankybird]

Hi, Try switching the controlers. Even thuo they are not marked, there are controlers for LH and RH turnouts. I had the same problem with mine.

[brianel027]

Spankybird, do you also have the new revised K-Line switches? There are new 027 ones with a very small switch box... same size footprint, but mcuh better looking.
If these are the ones you have, post a review on them. Would love to hear what folks have to say on these. I have yet to actually see them... seems there's still plenty of stock on the older ones with the excessively large housing.

[spankybird]

Hi, Yes I have the new low profile ones. I changed over to the K-line ones about 1.5 years ago. I have 16 of them and all are working fine. My complete layout (10' x 20') is with 0-27 track, both k-line and lionel.

[brianel027]

Hey spankybird - glad to have you here posting. I mean, I can appreciate all modelers in whatever scale they may choose. But in the 3-rail world, there's such a negative perception on 027. I know Walt Rapp is a big 027 guy, and I am too. Sure if I had the money and the space, things might be different. But they're not, so I'm glad 027 is still available and allows me the chance to participate in the hobby, even if it is "less-than-scale."
I'm an 027 hi-railer who has added ties and ballast to the track, add detail nearly all my trains, has kitbashed and designed my own engines, designed and built my own operating accessories and cars - and I'm certain I have as much fun at it as anyone else.
Welcome! And keep posting!

[Big_Boy_4005]

Walt, that chattering that you are experiencing sounds like the switch is confused. It is sonehow recieving a signal to go straight and curved at the same time. I don't have any of the switches like you are talking about, but I have wired enough over the years and have experienced this problem before.

Can you get them to work properly without the controllers? Over the years Lionel has changed their design on both 027 (1122) and O gauge (022) requiring the fiber pins to be moved to a different rail, and I'm thinking that K-line may have pulled a fast one, and caught you off guard.

Usually, the non derailing feature is on the two short inside rails coming away from the frog. Some early postwar models had a gap in the long outside rails, and needed the fiber pins there to operate properly. Make sure that you positivly identify which combination activates the feature, and place the pins accordingly. A simple method to test the rails is, with power to the rails and both legs of the switch disconnected, touch one end of a wire to the outside rail near the point end of the switch, and use the other end to probe the 4 outside rail ends at the other end of the switch. This will insure that you have placed the fiber pins in the correct location.

When wiring the controllers, the post arrangement may not be in the same order as the wires in the flat cable. One wire, usually the center wire (but not always), will be common, and the other two will be the legs for straight and curved. When the lever is thrown, contact is made. The secret is to identify the common post on the switch and the common wire on the controller. Again K-line may have done this in a way that you are not used to, and this could be the source of your trouble. You mentioned that K-line had marked a wire and terminal with 3 dashes, and I would think that that was their way of indicating the common, but with things made in China, sometimes things are lost in translation. Once you have the commons identified and connected, the orientation problem is solved by simply flipping the other two wires on the other two posts.

One final question, are you trying to activate multiple switches with a single controller, or one controller per switch?

[spankybird]

Thanks for the kind words. I am going to try to insert a couple of pictures of part of my layouot.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Spankybird, use the preview reply button to check your urls, and make sure that the pictures work. Url's are very unforgiving and are case sensative. Keep trying.

[spankybird]

Goodmornig Big_Boy_4005,
Last night I added the pictures from my home computor using IMG format. I used the preview and it looked good. I even reviewed it after the submit. Maybe it worked from home becuase the path for the pictures is on my hard dirve. Can you add pictures on this form. If so, where do the files have to be? I would like to share what I have done.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yup, Spanky, that's the problem. When you left, your computer broke off the connection to your drive. The photos need to be up on the net. Your ISP may have some space allocated with your account. I have Comcast, and only recently figured it out myself. It takes a little effort, but once you get the hang of it, its not too bad, and the results are a lot of fun. I try to keep my image size reasonably small, out of consideration for those who don't have fast connections.

Here's one.....

[spankybird]

HI Big_Boy_4005,
Well after being a member of MTH club for years I guess its time to start a web page. THis is new for me but its not bad for a start. When I have time , I will work out the link problem. Here is the addresss of the web page that has the pictures. http://204.156.4.220/memberpages2/mth.asp?dude=spankybird

[Big_Boy_4005]

Cool, nice start, and nice layout from what I can see. Brianel027 is going to love this!!!
You've done a very nice job with the 027 track. A hint on the photos, if you can resize them it helps. The one I posted is 400 x 600 pixils, also when I resize, I set the quality to medium, that helps keep the file size down and will make your alotted space last longer. The link to your web page is the best way to show a lot of pics at once. For 1 or 2 pics the img command works well. Now that they are up on the web, you should have a directory with the individual pics in it. That would be what you would use with the img.

Getting back to the topic, I noticed the switches in the photos, and am wondering if some of those are what Walt was talking about in the first place.

[brianel027]

Thanks Big_Boy. Nice photos Spankybird... hope the real Spankybird doesn't want to "play" with the trains, the way some guys cats like to "play" with the trains. On my layout I went a couple steps further... I chopped the 027 switch down to just the footprint of the track itself. A lot of extra work, but worth it on a small layout. I also made all my ties out of balsa wood: spray painted brown and then I used brown and black crayons for the finishing touch. I used Woodland Scenics ballast and mixed colors for mainlines and sidings. I do like the look of those new K-Line switches, though I wi***he footprint could have been smaller.

Now for a left turn...
On the topic of this thread, I noticed Walt posted over at the other place, the OGR site. Granted there's a lot more posting action over there, no doubt. But as much as some of those guys don't like THIS site, I get so annoyed everytime I go over there and read all the little insults like 'Lionel is at the Toy Fair because Lionel makes TOY trains' (Lionel makes plenty of scale stuff these days). I don't know if it's sarcasism or ignorance. Guys who make those comments are worse than kids in my mind, and at least kids are cute! It's this attitude of ME, ME ME! Look at ME! I won't buy that engine because it has 499 rivets and the real one had 503! Give ME what I want!
These adults they want the whole industry to cater to them and only them - they don't even notice that it has happened already. There was a thread once on the wasting of space reviewing stater sets and product in the train mags. There was once another on not wasting space on stater layouts. Yep, as if these guys actually started off years ago as kids with a $1,200 steam engine and a 20'x40' layout. Maybe they should go to HO and have the ultimate realism of only 2 rails - or don't they realize that real trains only have 2 rails????

Yeah, I've had my rants too... wishing for some modern roads on smaller product, maybe once in a great while some new tooling on smaller product. But I've never wished that there was no scale product made.
The hobby should be for EVERYONE! Maybe the majority of modelers are adults! But that's no reason to not have some product for beginners, budget modelers and semi-scale operators. Besides if these demanding adults took a look at the hobby these days, maybe they would notice the companies ARE catering to their every whim... nearly everything made now is near scale. The token offerings of traditional product is NOT doing anything to hurt the SCALE end of the hobby.
Granted the numbers of young people entering the hobby is nothing like it was in years past. I have no doubt that my 4th grade nephew is possibly the only kid in his class at school with a Lionel train layout. BUT that's no reason to not continue to try and reach the kids. Besides the companies are not making any real investments in tooling on starter product... what's being offered is product that has been around for years.
Despite my little rant here, I like reading the articles in the train mags on everything! I'm not ever buying a $800 train engine, but I'll still read the product review... I want to know what's going on. I just like trains. I also read the Model Railroader magazine... there's ideas in there that are completely adaptable to 3-rail trains. Although according to some at the OGR site, the MR magazine is for "weenies." Which is the typical name they use for HO guys. Again, is this sarcasism or worse???

Spankybird, I like what you are doing. If you were using Atlas 0 track, I'd like it too. I just like trains. And my philosophy on trains is like my view on life: Tolerance and respect. Let people have the freedom and space to do their own thing as long as they allow you the same.
Which also would also include using the much maligned (by some) 027 track.

[waltrapp]

Back to K-Line switches: [:)]

RE: CLATTERING: I saw on the bottom of the controllers that they are marked, as was noted above, RH or LH. Yes, they are left and right hand sensitive. I swapped the controllers on the 2 switches acting up and all is well now! [:)]

I had one switch that I had to perform 'surgery' on in 3 places.

1. Coming out of the divergent track into the body, the plastic near the frog area was too high - a good 1/32" to 1/16". So the train wheel would ride too high and then 'drop' down when it entered the body area of the switch.

2. After I fixed #1 the engine still bounced badly coming from the divergent rail to the main body. The problem was that the switch rail that has a little indention in it to accept the tip of the swivel part was sticking out past the tip of the swivel part. Basically the lead wheel was hitting an 'open' piece of tubular track. Ideally you'd want the tip of the swivel piece to form a nice smooth continuing curve coming out of the divergent path. I've never seen a switch constructed the way that K-line did - leaving the open piece of tubular track to line up with the swivel part. To solve this I pinched close the piece of tubular track forming a nice continual curve. I had to do this on 2 of the 4 switches - on the other 2 the tip of the swivel lined up nicely with the exiting piece of track.

3. This one happens with the train running the other direction than described in #1 and #2. In this case the problem occurred when the train entered the main body of the switch and wanted to take the divergent path (sort of like coming up the leg of a 'Y' and deciding which way to go). This time the 'fixed' side of the swivel didn't line up with the plastic frog - the plastic stuck out too much toward the center. So the flange of the train would ride properly on the swivel part and then would hit the plastic frog causing a bounce. This happened on 2 of the 4 switches. I fixed this by Dremmeling the frog to form a nice smooth curve in the plastic that lined up with the swivel.

I also owe the writer of the directions (I'm SURE he reads this! [:D] ) an apology. The first time that I read the directions I skimmed them. I assumed that since they made a big deal about making sure that the wire with the '---' went to the switch post with the '---' that it was ground. Lionel's O27 switches do have their ground wire a different shape that the left/right controlling wires. The directions do NOT say that this is a ground wire. Also, the directions DO say that the middle post is the ground post and I missed that. So the wiring to the AIU is perfectly normal.

I will definitely be buying more of these switches and selling my Lionel O27 ones. I don't want to be critical of the Lionel ones because the do PERFORM perfectly and I have never had misallignments and such. The lower profile K-line motor is the main reason that I want to convert - to allow me to run all of my Railking stuff.

And to confirm, yes, I am ALLLLLLLLL O27!

thanks -walt

[Big_Boy_4005]

Well Walt, I now bestow upon you the title of K-line Switch Doctor, since with only a little hinting and encouragement from all of us, you managed to solve all of your problems yourself. Well done![8D]

Brian, I knew you would like Spanky's layout.

When it comes to reading reviews for $800 locomotives, you're a better man than I am, cause if I ain't buyin it, I ain't readin it! I never spend over $300 on a single piece.

By the way, the word you are looking for in your last sentence is MALIGNED not aligned, as your usage is correct for that word. Don't feel bad though, because up until last week, I had been spelling the word GAUGE wrong. I'm sure if you find some of my old posts, and look carefully you can have a good laugh at my expense.

Finally, one small request, not just for Brian, but for anyone who writes long responses.
When you intend for a paragraph break, hit the enter key an extra time to give some white space. It really helps to break up the text, and makes it much easier to read, as I do like to read them.

[spankybird]

Back to the K-line 027 switches: There are two big advantages over Lionel, 1. they run on fix power or track power, 2. the switches and controlers have lights. The low profile allows many of the longer rolling stock run. If you note on my layout, I have an MTH-RK C&O Allegheny 2-6-6-6 and I also can run my UP Challenger 4-6-6-4.
By the way Brian, I use all Lionel or K-line 027 track. Must of it was bought used. I started to build this in 1997, before all the new tracks came out.

[Anonymous]

You mentioned your diesel was jumping through the switches. I run postwar but found a similar problem when I ran my MPC-era GP-20 through one. The traction tires act as an insulator and don't throw the switch.

[waltrapp]

glivorsi:

I agree that the length of the derailer track is very short on these switches.

The problem you're having: I thought that traction tires were NEVER the lead axle for this very reason??

Even so, I'm planning on lengthening mine but putting a section on insulated track both on the main route and the divergent route. Fortunately this is easy to do with tubular track (just jimmy up the clamps on the rail, insert insulation material, reclamp the rail).

- walt

[pennsy_fan]

I have a question about the K-line 027 switches. Do they buzz if you park a freight car over them, like ,say for switching onto a siding, like lionel 027 switches? Or, do they act like "022" switches?(no buzz)???

[spankybird]

Hi Pennsy_fan,
I glad to say no buzzing. [tup]