One of the most interesting and time consuming aspects of collecting vintage toy trains is undoubtedly variations. These differences in the manufacture of various items by Lionel are highly studied and documented in Postwar, although not so much for us prewar folks. Although i collect Ives, i also enjoy Prewar Lionel, especially the O-27 trains the firm produced from 1936-1942. That after all is where my collecting roots lie. My first vintage train was a 1689e set from 1937.
I have begun a study of variations involving the 1666(e) steam locomotives produced by the firm from 1938-1942 and again after WWII from 1945?-47. I feel we all could enjoy inspecting our locomotives to see if my assumptions are correct and hopefully add some new variations. The 1666 was a diecast steam engine which was modeled after the NYC J-1 hudson. Lionel intended it to be a "scale detailed" locomotive, they did a good job, it resembles the prototype closely(for a TOY train).
The loco shared its boiler shell with the 1664 and 224 which were introduced the same year, and also the 229 which steamed into the lineup a year later. The 224 and 229 where O gauge models and the 1664/1666 were sold in the o-27 line. Many characteristics of the 1666 are shared with its siblings. I have prepared below a list of variations, i will in time begin building a library of photographs to display the variations. I invite reader reports of their locomotives as well as critiques or corrections, lets have some fun with this. If your locomotive has been restored or shows signs of replacement parts please add that in. The youngest of these engines is 61 years old so their are bound to be inconsistencies due to disassembly and modifications.
A short rant. As a obsessive person, with an eye for detail i have noticed that the plate holding the drawbar located under the cab of 1666 locos never seems to be consistently mounted, some being mounted with the notched end positioned towards the motor, some being reversed and the screwholes all sorts of mingled around. I will illustrate how i feel this should be correctly mounted, and if anyone has any boxed examples which they believe have never been cracked-open id like to hear how yours is mounted. This is probably due to either owner meddling, or inconsistent assembly at the factory. Here we go
Two oddities- I've uncovered two oddities so far in my quest. I have observed two locomotives which have no plate to mount the drawbar, Instead the drawbar and rear truck are both mounted to the motor spacer bar. This is similar to the fashion they are attached to the 225e. The second is two locos which have roller pickups mounted on a bakelite plate similar to those found on 1665/56 switchers. I observed one in person, the loco showed no signs of tampering.
Early 1938- Gunmetal gray paint with ridges on sandome, 6 black zamac drivewheels similar to those found on 1668(e) torpedoes. Loco has Chemically blackened pilot and trucks with the 1(2)689t/w with the 1938 style magnetic coupler with nickel journals. Drawbar mounted on plate under cab. The plate is nickel finished and has 4 screw holes for different mounting positions. Loco has small seemingly 2 piece bolts attaching siderods to front drivers, and attaching cylinder linkage to the cast metal piston assembly. These bolts seem to be confined to the early engines. Usually found with a bright green E-unit drum. Dont ask how i know that...
Late 1938/early 1939- Same as above but the plate is now blackened and the tender has black journals with the 1939 style solenoid activated coupler.
1939- Loco now painted satin black, with 6 nickel tired zamac drivers. The small bolts for linkage now changed to uniform bolts. Loco has ridges on sandome. Tender 1(2)689t/w with black jounals and 1939 style box coupler.
1940- Loco remains black, although it seems sometime in this year the paint was dulled a notch. Sand dome still has ridges. Only noticeable change seems to appear in the tender which is 1(2)689t/w but now has 1940 style box coupler with simulated lift pin.
Note: Although the Greenberg book says the ridges where removed from the sand dome in 39-40 i believe the change occured in 1941. This is based on several early 1941/ late 1940 original sets with locos containing sand domes.
1941- Loco now painted a dull black, ridges almost always absent from sand domes. Trailing truck now mounted by a rivet to an extension of the drawbar platewhich now has only 2 screw holes. The loco was now available with only the 2689t/w or the plastic "scale detailed" 2666T/W. Both tenders have black journals with the 1941 style box coupler this coupler has a shortened shank with the drawbar pin removed.
Note- The removal of the drawbar pin and the shortening of the shank is believed by many to have been a response to government restraints on the amount of metal used in toys due to the outbreak of WWII. This was also followed by the blackening of trim and the use of cotter pins to hold handrails onto tankcars. This is around the time the aluminum paint turned to "92" gray. A high gloss medium gray. This would also account for the gram of metal saved by the deletion of the sand dome ridges. I myself do not believe this. The changes would almost certainly have occured in the 1940 production year, and even if they were not implemented until 1941, were still months before the U.S.'s entry into the war on December 8th. I have unsuccessfully searched for records of such government dictated restrictions, however i find it hard to swallow that one would have been issued early enough for Lionel to change it's tooling before 1941. I believe the coupler, trim, and pigment changes were natural steps in Lionel's quest for realism in the late prewar years. As for my guess at the missing sand domes? I believe they were deleted due to casting difficulties. All the engines i have viewed except a few early gunmetal 1666's have heavy filing marks around the ridges, indicating the casting was rough in this area. As the casting wore from use, it worsened, and it became more cost effective simply to file them right off.
1942- The loco remained the same as the previous year. Perhaps this is when the "225" style rear truck/drawbar assembly was used. This was observed on two locos, both prewar, one had ridged sand domes with the holes to mount the drawbar plate tapped, the other having the holes un-threaded and no ridges. This is probably due to Lionel using all stockpiled parts to assemble sets as toy production ceased, ceding to the war effort.
1943/44-No locos produced, except maybe some mutts by Madison Hardware assembled by them from left over stock. I believe this is where the mysterious green binned 3659 Dumpcar originated...
1945- An interesting year. Supposedly no 1666's produced, although i have seen two sharing the characteristics of the 224 of this year, with blackened handrails. Any comments?
1946- The 1666 returns, similar to the 1941 model. Except having a rounded cab floor. I have seen no examples of this loco to report in depth.
1947- The last year, the loco returns same as the previous year, except the lettering is now silver rubber stamped. No depression exists where the plate recess would have been located. I have read that this casting had an integral pilot, although i find that hard to believe. Once again i have seen no examples of this in person to comment further.
Some ending notes.
It has been speculated that late 41/early 42 1666's exist with their numbers rubber stamped in the recess left by an absent number plate. Although this is common on 229's,
Great post!
Yes! Have a 1945 with black handrails.
Also don't forget the mighty powerful "X" stamped on the firebox door version.
Great running engine!
Wes
AFML, what is this "X" stamped version, i've never heard of it. I suppose they did make the locos in 45' if you both have black handrail locos.
As for your missing tender, the 45' version was paired with a 2466w. The tender would have flying shoe trucks. If it is a late 42' model you could pair it with a 2224 plastic tender. I've never inspected the "special means of coupling the loco and tender" on a 45' engine.
I dont think my 1666E came with a headlight. It has a bracket on the plate that holds the front guide truck to but there are no evidence of any other wires that could go too a headlight. The only wires ive seen either go to the E-unit or the motor. Did some of these engines didnt come with a headlight from the factory? Mine has the hatches on top of the sandbox. I think mine was made in 1939 because in the set the Babe Ruth boxcar said "new in 1939". It has a sheet metal tender with the hook style couplers and the Lionel Lines name is stamped on, not a seperate metal plate. The engine's cab number is on a seperate plate and not stamped on decal. It has spoked drive wheels and all the rods are held on buy hex nuts exeptfor the accentric cranks. Those are held on by phillups head type screws. There is one hole at the bottom of the smokebox below the walkways on the side of the boiler on both sides of the engine. There is also a hole in each side of the firebox and they are below the walkaways also. I'm not shure if these are screw holes.
Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!
Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.
I highly doubt any 1666's where produced without headlights. It was a feature even found on ultra low end items. The wire would have led to the tab on the e-unit, it could easily have pulle dloose, leaving no evidence that it ever was there. The extra holes you describe where for mounting different motors in the casting. As stated before the casting was shared by 4 locomotives, so Lionel made provisions in the basic tooling for all motor applications. The baby ruth boxcar you have (should have a maroon roof) was the version new in 1940.
There was an uncatalogued set that included a 229 with the late rubber stamped 2800 series cars. The set included the uber rare tuscan 2813 cattle, too bad you didnt get the cars. Still a rare tender!
Unfortunately the diecast 2224w in set 140w as mentioned is more difficult to explain, maybe you got an early production set, or Lionel had some extra cast tender laying around...
Agreed, How early did they make 224's and how late did they make diecast 2224T's or W's Could be in this case the fact that my set has a 2224T and not a 2224W could be important as well. Possibly the stack of built and boxed 2224T's did not get used up as quickly as the W's since I would expect most of those sets contained the whistle tender.
I did get the two tone green 2613,14,15 with the 229. I'd like to find some confirmation that that was really an uncataloged set. While not Uber rare, the TT green cars are tough and can be expensive. Funny thing is the exact sum I paid for the set was coverd by an auction sale I made for a decent condition Dorfan double light pole that I paid $5 for so, if I twist it right in my mind it was a great buy!
I believe the diecast tender with the 224 was discontinued in 1940, as i've never observed one with 41 style box couplers.
The 229 with 2689wx and 2600 series cars was probably a set, there is no denying this possibility with the high couplered 2689wx.
So back to my obsession... How are your drawbar plates mounted? I need to know if i'm correct.
I'll look, but I have seen them come both ways. I personally prefer to turn them when I work on one such that the drawbar sticks out the least amount.
I have not seen the 1664/229 style plate and rear truck on the 1666 but I only have two of those. one prewar 1666 (no E) with ridges on the sand dome and a postwar with rubber stamp and curved rear cab floor nickle railings.
Interesting the 1666 with ridges occurs but the 224's, at least the three I have, do not have ridges. You would expect they changed from E plates to non E plates across the line at the same time, however, they would have used up what ever E plates were left which could lead to variations in timeframe when comparing, say, 224 (E)'s and 1666 (E)'s.
I do have an early 675 with no front coupler with a 671 drawbar rivited to its rear truck. It was pretty beat up and came with its original consist of cars, although beat up. It was the 1947 set with the 2555 2458 3559 and 2357 with plastic stack and inward facing brake wheels. This only means it was an early set for 47 due to the caboose. So the questin is is it possible the 675 could have come with the 671 drawbar early in its production run or was it replaced by a repair station ( the more likely scenario)? The fact that the whole set was beat up and such leads me to belive at the very least the engine had the 671 drawbar for a looong time.
Ahh, lets ask something truely challenging like when did they switch from the olive green E unit drums to the Red ones???
And, no I don't know!
So what is the story on the 1666 with the "X" stamped in the cab?
Sorry I'm so late. Here's some of my 1946 1666 to help with the research. Sand Dome hatches are not cast into shell.
Note the rounded cab floor.
Kurt
ivesboy, please PM me if you would like additional specific pics.
i recently repainted a 1666 engine-the engine looks brand new
Sorry for the delay.. I've been dealing with that four letter word...W O R K! LOL!!
First, a couple of pics:
Now a few words from Bruce Greenberg:
"(A) Early 1946, number plates with "1666" in silver on a black background. The bell mechanism consisted of two parts: a bell (machined out of brass and plated) with horizonjtal shart mounted on stamped-steel bracket, which in turn was fastened by a screw to the boiler. The pilot and steam chest were mounted by screws, which in drilled and tapped holes in the boiler casting, the front truck was cast, the center drive wheel on each side had slots to receive the nibs of the cast eccentric crank, the eccentric crank was attached by a slot-headed screw, the rear truck mounting-plate holes were drilled and tapped into the casting, and the headlight socket had a screw base, black handrails and cotter pins.
(B) Early 1946, same as (A), but nickel-finished handrails and cotter pins.
(D) Same as (B), but smooth sand dome and 3/8" high "X" on left firebox door."
MUCH MORE info available!
Please also note: "The prewar 1666 has a pair of raised ovals which are not present on the postwar version. (The same change occurred to the 224 after 1938, during the prewar period." "So far, we have not turned up any evidence that the 1666 was produced in late 1945. However, we have one report (Make that two! I have the same set!) from J. Foss of a 1666 locomotive which came with a 2666WX tender, a 2454 PRR boxcar, a 2452 gondola, and a 2457 caboose. Alll three of the cars and tender have the early trucks with the open coil, whirly wheels, and thick axles. There is a slim chance that this set may have been made in late 1945 rather than early 1946."
"Now you know the REST of the story!" Neat stuff fer sure!
Sorry for the late replies gentlemen. Work and school, and broken volkswagens have occupied my train time lately. That 1666 with the X is really interesting. Doesnt seem to be a normal occurance for Lionel. Ill update the chart when i get a sec. It's nice to see some pics of postwar 1666's.
Post a picture or take a look at the back of the cab floor. If it is straight it is more likely prewar If it is round, It is definitely postwar. There were a few prewar castings with black handrails that were sold in 1945 with the straight cab floor (this is the exeption to the afore mentioned rule) If you cab number plate say 1666E it is definitely prewar but they began omiting the E on the plates in 1940/41 or so so you can have a prewar without the E.
By the way, the 1666 did come with 2640/41 cars in 1940 and 41 and I would have to check my 42 catalog. They would have been two tone green with cream windo inserts. Earlier versions of these cars were blue and silver and would have come with a 224E loco.
Welcome tothe board!
Do you have enough of the set that you can run it?
Ok, I have tried like heck to post images with this e-mail, but as of right now I can't figure it out. With a little more research, who knows?
Anyway, to the matter at hand. The 1666 engine does in fact have a flat cab floor. It looks like a step actually,with a pair of firebox doors on the top step. The handrails are bright, not black. And the number plate on the side of the cab does not have an "E". And just in case its an important detail, the number plate is separate, attached to the engine body with a couple of metal clips.
As for the 2640/41 Pullman passenger cars, they are exactly as you described, two tone green, (the roof being the darker) with cream colored inserts for the windows.
The key component I'm missing is the tender to make the connection with the pre-war style couplers on the Pullman cars. That did not come with the set and unfortunately is most likely lost. But the train itself is in what I would call good shape, perhaps even very good! It runs, but is in need of a good cleaning and lube, having sat in an attic for many years.
Anyway, I hope the information I've given will help to verify this trains age. I'll keep working on getting the pictures posted.
Happy New Year!
Its likely that your set did come together as a 1940 or 41 set. To tell that difference (40/41) look at the couplers on the cars. 1940 couplers stick out past the end of the car just slightly. and have a simulated lift pin detail that sticks up from the center rear top of the coupler head. 1941 couplers lack the detail and are set slightly lower and tucked slightly up under the car end. If I get a chance I'll try to post a comparison photo, but you should be able to tell the difference.
The tender you would want to look for would be a 2666T or 2666W. Look at your coal tender shell and see if it has a roughly 1/2 inch oval hole in the coal pile toward the front of the shell. The 2666T does not have a whistle and does not have the hole. The 2666W does have a whistle and needs the hole for the sound to escape. You can probably gent one off ebay pretty easily.
This post may or may not turn out well. I'm attempting to send a photo of my 1666 cab.As I write this, I have a blank box in front of me that moves as I type. Im just going to hit the post button and see what happens. (Oops, no luck. On to plan B.)
ogauge:
I just wanted to say thanks for the information on the 1666. It was extremely helpful and actually helped me trace the history of when it was purchased,who it was purchased for, and how it came into my hands.
I gave it a good clean up and lube, and ran it for the first time in about 20 years yesterday. It runs as quiet as a mouse. The e-unit works fine. The lamp doesn't work at the moment and the drawbar needs replaced. Other than that,its all good.
Once again, thanks for your help
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