Hi Folks,
Since Christmas, I have been quickly getting into this wonderful hobby with my Lionel O gear and became troubled when I made another recent trip to one of my local hobby stores.
They were running a suspended O layout around the store and I happened to hone in on the sound of the train on the track. Although it was running slowly, track sound was almost non-existent! It was so much quieter than my double oval (one is completely elevated) FasTrack layout at home. Although I've been advised that although my lower oval currently lays directly on a 4x8 particle board, having a buffer like astroturf or some other better looking insulator will certainly bring the decibel level down. I can't imagine it would be as quiet as what appeared to be GarGraves track even at slower speeds. Besides that, I don't think you can buffer the sound on the elevated oval I've opted to create.
Also, if one is elevating track, which I've done using the Lionel FasTrack trestle system, the realism is completely lost as tack bed is not elevated in life. Exept in their switches, Gargraves doesn't appear to have integrated track bed. I understand that not having the track bed would be much more time consuming by having to create one on the layout, but that's easier than having to separate the track bed from the FasTrack product (which I'm sure is not recommended or impossible to do). In addition, the GarGraves option of the Phantom track (which blackens out the middle rail) also adds to the realism versus FasTrack.
A couple of counter points to GarGraves: I've read that when assembling GarGraves track one needs to be very careful bending the flexible track due to possible kinking and it may be more difficult to power, but I'm not sure about that yet. Also, are there compatibility (or transition pieces) to marry FasTrack to GarGraves; will the Lionel transformer work on GarGraves or is the whole thing a bad idea?
I haven't purchased any GarGraves track thus far, but quickly thinking of making a change and thought I consult those on this forum more learned than me.
Thoughts?
Best,
Sam
One of my local dealers has loops of both Gargraves and Fastrack on his store layout. The Gargraves is indeed quieter.
The Gargraves will be less expensive than Fastrack, and if you don't want to bend flex-track, you can buy sectional pieces in various diameters (O32, O42, O54, O72, and O84 I believe). You can use the same transformers with Gargraves. As far as wiring, you can crimp your own wires very cheaply. Just crimp a ring connector on one end of the wire for your transformer, and crimp a quick-disconnect lug on the other end. Push the lug into the underside of the track any place you need a connection. No need to mess with expensive terminal tracks. You can get those connectors in the electrical aisle of any hardware store.
I don't know of any transition pins to go from Fastrack to Gargraves. You could use the Fastrack-tubular transition pieces, and put Gargraves-tubular transition pins in them, I suppose, if you want to mix the two types on the same loop.
Dave,
Great insight, thanks! I knew it was well possible, but didn't want to recreate the wheel. This is a great forum for sharing information.
Another thing to mention about GarGraves track verses Lionel is that all three rails in GarGraves are seperated electrically from each other.
The cost for Fastrac is more and the system is not as flexible as GarGraves or regular tubular track being that you can not cut the ends off and make it fit like you can with tubular track. Rosss Custom switches makes switches that look more like the real track system for a yard type set-up. The curve sizes in Fastrac are differant than tubular also!
From what I have seen with Atlas track you must have a large layout area for any switches to be used.
I am not putting down any track system but just pointing out some differences that I have noticed.
Lee F.
GarGrave track carries electricity very well. I have two 25 by 25 loops with one set of wires by the transformer and one set at the far end. No voltage loss.TMCC works fine.
EDIT= I forgot, Heavy drapes or the like hung around the open table works wonders at deadening the noise.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
how do you figure that fast track costs more. i pay 2.72 for a 10" straight piece of fast track. . that comes to .27 an inch. gargraves dont have a 10" but has a 12" peice. the cheapest i seen it was 4.25. . thats .35 an inch.
Give me steam locomotives or give me DEATH!
Berkshire Junction, bringing fourth the cry of the Iron Horse since 1900.
I built a layout made with FasTrack and it is a great track system. The trains run extremely smooth and the assembly of the system is easy. The operation of it is much better than 027 or 0 gauge track. The sections fit tight and level, good top surface area for rollers and it's the best looking roadbed track. It was a real pleasure to run my engines on it.
I recently tore it up for the Graves Phantom sectional track with plastic ties and tinplated rails. Graves in my opinion after using it is for the serious modeler. When combined with Woodland Scenics light gray coarse ballast it has got to be the best looking 3-rail track. It is also MUCH quieter than the FasTrack. I also like the fact that all three rails are insulated from each other. Much nicer to make insulated tracks for accessories. I would not say that the fit and smoothness of the Graves is up to par the the FasTrack. But one look of it done right with a Santa Fe F3 was more than enough for me. In fact I like the Graves so much that for the 1st time in 25+ years I am using a NON-Lionel product on my layout!
Regardless of what you use you can't go wrong. Anything but tubular.
Although Gargraves bends very easily it is a lot of work to mate curved pieces or get a perfect curve. On a small layout thats basically oval shaped this is a bit of work to get a truly symetrical oval if thats the look you want. I would go to the added expense of ROSS . The rails are spiked as well as glued to the ties. They also have a small wooden stringers that passes through each tie to keep them from shifting. I believe they are sturdy enough to use some sort of trestle system. Also the rails rest solely on the ties. The Gargraves features a slot milled in the tie and the rail rests in a milled slot and is basically just secured by tension. Without a ballast slope this is visible. Gargraves also makes sectional track with plastic ties.
As far as electrical hookups. With Ross the easiest way is to remove a portion of the stringer to get a good shot at the undersides of the rail. Remove the black coating on the underside of the center rail. Simply solder wires in place.
As far as noise. The quietest portion on my layout is an Atlas Truss bridge with their track. Not so sure if it's the solid rail or just the fact thats theres no roadbed beneath it.
You don't have to use the flex track. Just use sectional track. Thats all you need. I see no use that the sectional graves can not produce. Great radii and several lentghs for straight. Unless your doing something completly out of whack I would never consider using flex.
I agree the ROSS switches are the way to go. After I bought one and reviewed it they really are "Cadillac" so to speak. Well worth the $$.
Interesting thread. Certainly each type has fans. I guess it all depends, among other things, on what roadbed appearance you want, your budget, your layout focus and the time and effort you have to devote to the hobby.
That being said....To me, there is nothing more appealing than seeing Classic Toy Trains running on Classic Tubular Track......But, that is only my . All the best!
Could someone post pictures of the different types and brands of track being discussed?
It would help this new modeler understand the differences.
ThanksTMT
There have been several articles on how to modify Fastrak.I don't use it ,I use tubular O-27 profile,but the modifications did not seem to be too difficult.
Also several articles have been written on how to deaden Fastrak noise.
Berk765 wrote:What is a quick disconnect lug? What do they look like? Could I use them on Lionel O-27 track? I would like to get rid of all those ugly Lionel track clip ons I have. Thanks guys
GarGraves track clips look better and you can paint the clips after you put them into place, will work with almost any tubular track. All you have to do is push the clips into place from underneath the track section, may need a pair of pliers to convince the clip to go in.
Some other people mention using wire spades that you buy by the dozen or large quantity box. I have not done that so I don't know how well that works electrically, any way the wire spades are wider and need to have the track opened slightly with a small flat tip screwdriver. I have tried that one time but made the section of track look bad.
I use GarGraves track a lot and have found it to be less expensive when you buy the 37.25 inch straight trac section and cut it to fit into your layout. Another note about GarGraves track and that is they make curve sizes from 32 inches up to 102 inches, the larger sizes might be special order but they do make the track.
For insulating pins I have cut down K-Line S gauge insulating pins with an exacto knife to fit the GarGraves track. Insulating pins are needed on curve tracks at times. Plastic insulating pins work well and using toothpicks as some do I have found that it is more permanent and don't remove well if you ever change the track.
The URL is way too big for me to post without it getting mangled, so go to radioshack.com and search for part# 64-3038. They're cheaper at your hardware store than at Radio Shack, but this way you'll know what to look for.
And yes, they work fine with O27 track. That's what I use. You do have to spread the rail slightly, but after I did my first track section or two I was able to do it without visibly changing the track. The conductivity is good. The connectors appear to be tin-plated copper.
ozzy wrote: how do you figure that fast track costs more. i pay 2.72 for a 10" straight piece of fast track. . that comes to .27 an inch. gargraves dont have a 10" but has a 12" peice. the cheapest i seen it was 4.25. . thats .35 an inch.
I found Gargraves 10" straights for $2.79 each the first place I looked. A 36" straight is about $6. The same place is selling Fastrack 10" straights for $3.22. They didn't have the long Fastrack straights but the last time I priced those, they were more than $6. Plus the smaller odd-sized Fastrack sectons are around $3. To get fitter sections for Gargraves, you can just cut a longer piece to length and then you can use the leftover for other fitter sections.
The prices look comparable at first, but once you price out the dozens of pieces you'll need to build a full layout, it adds up quickly.
Fastrack is awfully nice for a floor layout and I use it around the Christmas tree, but it's not especially economical. If I'd had to buy Fastrack for my permanent layout, I wouldn't have been able to afford to have a permanent layout.
Too_Many_Tools wrote: Could someone post pictures of the different types and brands of track being discussed?
Sure.
But first my : FasTrack is awesome from a performance and ease of use and looks perspective. Electrically superior to virtually all other trackage I think (by virtue of the excellent physical connections between sections) However, for the all-out Hi-railer who wants the ultimate in realism in three rail, you can beat the three dimensional beauty of the gargraves with it's real wood cross ties, ballasted properly (painstakingly by you) with an accurate model ballast.
Roland
Above is Jim Apitz's layout made with FasTrack...
And below is Dennis Brennan's layout done with Atlas O track/switches but very comparable aesthetically with gargraves track pictured at bottom.
Dave Farquhar wrote: ozzy wrote: how do you figure that fast track costs more. i pay 2.72 for a 10" straight piece of fast track. . that comes to .27 an inch. gargraves dont have a 10" but has a 12" peice. the cheapest i seen it was 4.25. . thats .35 an inch. I found Gargraves 10" straights for $2.79 each the first place I looked. A 36" straight is about $6. The same place is selling Fastrack 10" straights for $3.22. They didn't have the long Fastrack straights but the last time I priced those, they were more than $6. Plus the smaller odd-sized Fastrack sectons are around $3. To get fitter sections for Gargraves, you can just cut a longer piece to length and then you can use the leftover for other fitter sections. The prices look comparable at first, but once you price out the dozens of pieces you'll need to build a full layout, it adds up quickly.Fastrack is awfully nice for a floor layout and I use it around the Christmas tree, but it's not especially economical. If I'd had to buy Fastrack for my permanent layout, I wouldn't have been able to afford to have a permanent layout.
from looking at the gargraves website the night i posted that they did not offer a 10" piece. they had a 6" and a 12" rest was longer then 12"....
where did you see that?
Someone asked about a comparison photo, so I went ahead and lined up all the different types of track I have on hand for comparison
From left to right
Fastrack with a silver center rail(the white paint on the side is from a failed experiment of mine)
Fastrack with a black center rail(no longer produced)
Atlas O
Gargraves(36" flex section)
Super O(no longer produced)
O gauge tubular with O72 tie spacing(no longer produced in straights-this one was by K-line)
Standard O
O27
Too_Many_Tools wrote: Could someone post pictures of the different types and brands of track being discussed?It would help this new modeler understand the differences.ThanksTMT
http://www.amazon.com/Trackwork-Toy-Trains-Peter-Riddle/dp/0890247072/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199938140&sr=8-7
I recently got this book and it helped me decide to switch to gargraves, just FYI
RIP Chewy - best dog I ever had.
I have to agree with Dave F. about the price of Fastrac, especially the switches as a pair will run you $180.00 plus sales tax or close to $200.00 a pair! If I had to pay that for a pair of switches may layout wouldn't be half way built!! Right now my layout is almost complete.
And for anybody new to GarGraves track don't forget all three rails are insulated from each other, and at switches with GarGraves you may need to put a jumper wire for the outside rail power.
phillyreading wrote:I have to agree with Dave F. about the price of Fastrac, especially the switches as a pair will run you $180.00 plus sales tax or close to $200.00 a pair! If I had to pay that for a pair of switches may layout wouldn't be half way built!! Right now my layout is almost complete.And for anybody new to GarGraves track don't forget all three rails are insulated from each other, and at switches with GarGraves you may need to put a jumper wire for the outside rail power. Lee F.
last to pairs of switches i bought was under a 100.00 a pair. from my lhs.
i sure do like the looks of gargraves track better tho.
Gargraves is good track. A popular way to bend it is to cut a radius template out of plywood and bend the track around that. You will get a uniform curve. You can also template smooth transition curves. If the joints land in the curve area, solder them before bending. If you buy Gargraves in the long lengths, it's cheaper than Fastrack.
ozzy,
Last time I bought a GarGraves switch it was $45.00 for one at my LHS. Also to replace a switch machine you just take out the switch machine and leave the switch track in place. I can get replacement switch machines for about $20.00(price may have gone up) on line from Ross Switches website, that is if I buy a switch that don't have the DZ1000 switch machine with it.
Here are some closeups of track clustered by types (some are repeats):
tubular
That's FastTrack, O-31, O-27, and Gragraves
Solid Rail
That's Atlas O in the foreground, MTH ScaleTrax in the middle, and MTH RealTrax at the top.
Track with built in roadbed
RealTrax in foreground, FastTrack in background.
Track with real wood ties
Gragraves foreground, Ross in the background, note the spikes on each tie on the Ross product.
Hi all,
I know this is basically about fast track vs. gargraves, but it is the closest thread I could find about a comparison I need to make, tubular track vs. gargraves. I belong to a club that while predominantly HO, has a 6' x 50' layout with a G gauge oval on it, left after the member quit. Faced with tearing it down or finishing it off, I opened my big mouth and volunteered to work on it. The G gauge was changed from an over and under figure 8 to the oval to permit stacking a second O gauge level above it and a third S gauge level above that. It is intended to be a whimsical mountain layout patterned after the Polar Express (but without the impossible grades!) cartoon. We have enough sectional O-27 and O-31 track to do an entire O gauge loop. The track is used but mostly salvageable and is free (we have it now). I've renovated some of it using naval jelly to remove the rust and found nails that work fine for track pins. It is actually been kind of fun to resurrect this old track. The equivalent amount of gargraves flex would cost us around $250. We are having a planning meeting on Feb. 6 and I'd like to be armed with as much info as I can. I'd be doing the track laying myself and we have a supply of 7/16" flake board and 1x bracing. I did talk the club into buying the Lionel Polar Express set (even though we have a moratorium on funding minority scales so we're already $226 into the O gauge). The Polar Express is advertised as being runnable on O-27. I plan on using the O-31 where more than one curve section is required and the O-27 where single sections are needed. There is a vertical 1/4" height difference between the two, but easily shimmed for.
One member is proposing we go to Gargraves flex track (stainless), but is that the best thing for us to do? I read on the net that trying to bend the flex track to less than 53" radius is a real pain. Is that true? What reasonable minimum radius can it be bent to? The completed loop will be roughly 120' long. Will feeders need to be run to several parts of the track to prevent voltage drop? I am making the assumption here that the preformed Gargrave curved track would be too prohibitive for us to consider. I had already planned to solder jumpers and feeders to the sectional track because it will probably need it. Track appearance is not an issue as we are OK with the old sectional track and wide tie spacing. This layout is intended for kids to view and to run by pressing a button to power the train. We will have aristo-craft radio throttles controlling the transformers to shut down in case of emergency and probably a hidden switch to permit overriding the button for maintenance.
The layout will be visible from the front only and the tracks will be stacked vertically along the back wall, hidden by mountains, but accessible to members and provided with sideboards to prevent derailments from becoming catastrophes.
Can an acceptable layout be built using the sectional track? I'm up for the work. All tracks will be level and without switches for reliable display running during our open houses.
I will appreciate any help you can provide.
Sincerely,
Ron Ferrel, Secretary (and O gauge gandy dancer)
Pocatello Model Railroad and Historical Society
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