Madison Passenger car question

[Leverettrailfan]

I may be years late to this party, but for anyone with confusion about the passenger cars commonlay called “madison” cars, and why, here’s a summary for you:

In the late prewar era, Lionel designed a more realistic passenger car, to accompany some of its near-scale offerings. This car was proportioned so that it had a scale width, and near scale height, however, Lionel‘s track only came in two curve radii- their cheaper, lower profile track system, “O-27“, had curves that could form a circle with a 27” diameter, hence the title. They also offered “O-31”, also known as standard O. This, as you can probably guess, is due to it having curves that could form a 31” diameter circle. Standard O was more ruggedly built, and all the higher end sets came with it. Although for a brief period, Lionel did offer a more realistic option, which was compatible with Standard O, but had a 72” diameter circle instead, but most households had nowhere near the kind of space necessitated for such a broad curvature. So, when Lionel designed their new passenger cars, they had to be limited to an approximate 14.5” in length, as if they were any longer, they would be unable to negotiate the curves of O-31 track. The cars are better known for their postwar versions. In the early postwar era, from the late ‘40s until around 1950, the cars were marketed as “deluxe Pullmans” by Lionel. They were sold with three names, Irvington, Manhattan, and Madison. These were all names that were local to the Lionel Factory. The passenger cars were discontinued by the early ‘50s, I forget if they were ever reintroduced until after the postwar period. Ever heard of “Baby Madison” cars? Those were introduced by Lionel in the MPC era. They look like Madison cars, but they are shorter (about 13” long), have a plastic body and chassis (Madison cars have a sheet metal frame), and can go around the tighter O-27 curves. To remove the roof, you push in specific windows on the car, which allows you to pull the roof straight off so you can change the light bulbs. Madison cars require screws to be removed.

 

so, that’s all well and good, but why do they call them “Madison“ cars? Well, im not sure if it’s ever been detirmined that any one thing wasthe reason. But two possible theories are that they were called that because of the name that sometimes appears on the cars. The other, is that it had something to do with them being associated with Madison Hardware, a very famous dealer of Lionel Trains. Personally, I think the first is most likely.

 

So, anyhow, here’s what people mean, when they talk about “Madison” passenger cars:

assuming they’re using the term properly, the passenger car is essentially a re-make of the postwar car. It shares the dimensions, and possibly the same construction/mold as those cars. it could also simplybe in reference to an O gauge heavyweight car,  one that airs more on the hi-rail / toy train side of things.

 

hope this is helpful to folks out there, and points you all in the right direction. Please correct my errors if I made any, I’d rather avoid misleading people than protect my pride.

[lionelsoni]

The original Irvington and Manhattan cars were made before the war and numbered 2623.  After the war, the Irvington, numbered 2625, was made and sold in sets of three identical cars.  In 1947, the names Madison and Manhattan were added, with the same number, 2625.  In 1948 the Madison and Manhattan were given their own numbers.  Joshua Cohen was born on Madison Avenue.

[sir james I]

Tim- the Lionel corp. named their passenger cars after cities where their plants or offices were located most in NJ.

[tim o'm]

Even though I don't know Lisa, I thank everyone here for their knowledge, and to her for bringing up a more general issue that has been bothering me.

For years, since I picked up an MTH catalog, I have noticed the Madison term, and never quite knew what was meant by it. Since I work with historic passenger cars, life-size, one would think that a term like this is well known. I have only seen it used in the context of 0-scale model trains, and not even in other scales. When I asked a man at a local hobby shop, he said Madison was a manufacturer, like Pullman, which I disputed, but got nowhere in the discussion.

And yet, in the "Century Of Lionel" DVD I bought a couple years back, the cars often mentioned elsewhere as Madison cars are described as Irvington cars. To confound this even more, the Williams catalog I received last year had every passenger car set, regardless of coloring or RR marking with the same Madison, Manhattan, Irvington and Chatham names on the flanks.

I know this thread will require some untangling, but is there a reason why so many manufacturers would use this term for a heavyweight passenger car? Is it a specific style or series that I can't quite tell from others? And if the LHS man is correct, where was the Madison factory? Thanks for any help you can lend.

[kblester]

Lisa,

Glad that worked out for you. MTH should mark those somehow.

I have all seven of the PRR Madison series. Very nice cars. If you get the dining car you will have to cut the passengers off at the knees in order to fit them in. I glued small tablecloths to the tables to cover up the surgery.

I first took the Observation car apart trying to find a way of getting the lanterns to "light" up better than they do. I thought a piece of fiber optic might carry light over to the inside of the lantern from the dome light, but the thin fibers I had did not help much. I know others have used LEDs for this, but I am not certain how they did it.

Enjoy running your new passenger service.  Ken

 

[Anonymous]

Problem solved!!!  Thanks for all the advice. 

Ken - the 2 screws I had taken out were the wrong ones - I found the other 2 under the coupler like you said. I could see the post and thought I had the right ones.  Guess I was working in poor light yesterday and couldn't see them - 'cause I DID look for others. 

Buckeye - there were no tabs, even tho' it looked like it when looking thru the windows    Since I don't have a dining car, guess you don't have to worry about grits being served.  Will just send them to you in a big hopper!!!

Spanky and John - the twist was the trick for sure once I got the right 2 screws out.

Seems like most of the stuff I get comes with little or NO instructions. Not good!!   Believe me, I do read them when I have them!

Passengers are now safe and secure in their seats! 

Thanks guys!

Lisa

[jefelectric]

Lisa, My CNJ passenger cars have 4 screws that hold the roof on, but not all are the same as someone mentioned.  The trick, is after you take the screws out, is in giving the car a twist.  Don't be afraid to twist it and the roof will pop right off.  BTW mine came with instructions on how to take the roof off as you must do that to replace the light bulbs.  Hey, I'm a guy and I read the instructions.

[Buckeye Riveter]

Lisa, I have found that sometimes the window glass is what is holding down a roof.  Look at the windows and if some of them look thicker than the others then these windows are the tabs locking the roof to the body of the car. 

I had to take one of my Lionel Madison Cars to a LHS and to find out how to remove the roof. 

BTW, when I rode the passenger trains, I don't remember them serving grits in the dinning cars so don't get any big ideas about your menus for your railroad.

[kblester]

Lisa,

Did you find the screws hidden under the trucks/couplers? Turn them to the side. Also if you look in the side windows you will see a post/support from floor to roof (hidden by compartment walls in some cars) that is the location of the two I missed on my first try. Good Luck.

Ken

[spankybird]

some cars can have as many as 6 or 8 screws (from the bottom) that have to be removed. Once all the  screws are removed, give the body a slight twist. The roof will come off. There are 4 locking tabes on the roof that have to come loose. I have also used a very small sloted screw driver to help pry the roofs off.

Good Luck!

[Anonymous]

I finally got some "passengers" for my Rail-King O-27 lighted Madison Passenger cars.

Problem - can someone tell me how to get inside without tearing anything up?  There are 2 screws on the bottom that I removed and I have tried to gently pry up the top.  The bottom and sides are molded together, so the whole shell doesn't come off.  I don't want to break anything.

Thanks!

Lisa