Modern Diesel Engine Question?

[Anonymous]

The February issue of Classic Toy Trains has an article about wiring the Coal Terminal & Trestle Railroad. I’m looking for a modern 0-27 diesel engine like the one pictured . It’s painted in Santa Fe red & silver war bonnet.

Can anyone identify that engine? Who is the toy manufacture?

Thanks;

Richard

[Chris F]

Richard,

It's a Dash 8 40BW. The model was manufactured by MTH and has a catalog number 30-2004. For more information, go to www.mth-railking.com , and use the search feature.

Santa Fe Dash 8's and Dash 9's are fairly common among manufacturers. You might check out the websites for Lionel and Williams, too.

BTW, I'm using the term "manufacturers" rather loosely, since all these firms import models manufactured in Asia.

[brianel027]

Being one of the resident experts here on 027, be forewarned that outside of the early MTH Railking Dash-8, SD90-Mac type locos, none will run on the 027 curve. Not Williams, not Lionel. Even the 15-inch long engines are pusing it... Williams says their GP-35 will make 027 curves. But the K-Line GP-35 will not clear the 027 switch housing.

On the Railking locos... the one pictured on the CTT layout is an early model from Railking. Most of these are in the 14 inch long area and will navigate 027 curves and switches. But on a visual level, most of these engines are very tall for typical 027-0 traditional rolling stock. I've run that engine on my layout along with a FP45 and they both looked way oversized with my other cars. The Railking line has mostly started going scale in dimensions (at least with locos) as of 2001-2002.
The 2 best proportioned modern locos ever made by Railking are the SD-45 and the SD-90MAC (#30-2224, 225, 2226). The SD-90MAC is only 3-1/2 inch high and looks good with other typical postwar sized cars. In my opinion, they did the best job in compressing the dimensions and details on this loco.
Some of the other modern diesels by MTH Railking have inaccurate dimensions listed in their catalogs... the SD-60 is listed at a 3-1/2 inch height. I haven't measured it, but having seen it, it sure looks taller than 3-1/2 inches.
May be this stuff doesn't bother most folks, but I don't like having an engine that is 1/2-3/4 inch taller than every car on the train.
Another sort of modern looking unit is the Lionel U-36B. There was a Conrail one 2 years ago and there's a WP one in the new catalog. But I'd stay away from these as they are very light weight and exceptionally poor pullers as they only have one motor. Adding some weights to this unit might help but I haven't tried it yet. I think the price is totally out of line for a loco with only one motor and plastic everything other than the sheet metal frame.
Look at the ones made by MPC during the late 1970's... there's a variety of roads made with die-cast trucks and couplers. The only thing on the MPC U-boats is you'd proably want to add another roller pick-up on the dummy truck.
The U-36B was in reality made by GE and was very problematic for the real railroads. But the design concept of the U-36B was the beginning of the new era in railroad diesels. The Lionel U-Boat certainly has the look of a more modern diesel. At 14-inches, it clears 027 switches. And with the floor walks not being molded as part of the body (as with the Railking locos) it isn't that hard to shorten the height of the shell on the U36B to make it fit in heightwise with other postwar sized cars. Plus shortening the shell height makes the loco appear to actually be longer instead of shorter and stubby (a scale U-boat comes in at around an 18 inch length). I've done this to a bunch of things and to my surprise, my other train buddies agree it does look much better.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the helping me identifying that MTH DASH-8. I got one of those train show deals on a set of MTH short 0-27 Santa Fe passenger cars, and now I‘m looking for something to pull them. My Lionel Pacific #8062 makes the coaches look too small, plus the tender is a little taller than the train. We have two small K-Line S-2 Switch Engines. (one is Santa Fe red & sliver and one is Southern Pacific black widow) The Santa Fe S-2 looks okay pulling a couple of the coaches as a computer train, but we still need a full sized modern diesel engine.

Brian, if you are looking for a small good looking diesel then Western Depot still has a few the K-Line Southern Pacific (black widow) S-2 Switchers for under $80. That is the engine I use for pulling my small freight cars, and it has dual motors. That hansom little engine even has the SP emblem in three places. The Engine sits up on top of the trucks, but it’s all black and blends together.

Richard

[mpzpw3]

If you are looking for something to pull your MTH passenger cars, you might consider the railking F-3's, or even the Lionel postwar, or postwar style F-3's. F-units are also prototypical for passenger cars. The Williams GP-7 may also be a possibility, may be a tad bit to tall, though. All will operate with O-27 track. I would avoid the postwar Lionel style alcos, because they just don't look right. Most modern engines being produced are scale, so won't work. Passenger cars are a problem on my layout, as I can't have scale ones because of the curves, and most diesels are roughly scale. Freight trains are easy, just put a gondola or two behind the engine before adding the traditional sized boxcars.

[Anonymous]

Hi mpzpw3,

The F-3 war bonnet would be the best solution, however my 13 year old and I just joined the local 3-Rail Lionel Club. They have a large TMCC modular layout that is setup at train shows. Naturally, now that we will be exhibitors I’m starting to pay more attention to etiquette. I browsed the club’s album, and found a pic of those same Santa Fe coaches being pulled by a war bonnet F-3. http://www.gglrrc.org/ That’s why I’m shopping around for a modern diesel.

When I tried my boy’s Cab 2383 Lionel GP-9 it looked a little too tall for those short coaches, so the DASH-8 will probably be taller yet? Anyway, our Cab 8062 Lionel 4-6-2 baby Pacific looks okay, and it is equipped with TMCC. Maybe I’ll have to give up on my modern diesel idea?

Here is an actual picture of a GP-9 next to a standard coach, and the Greep is taller:

http://ncespee.railfan.net/spgp9p/sp3002.html

Richard

[ferronut]

hi richard! did you ever considered a williams gp38-2,santa fe warbonnet? i think it will look good pulling those coaches and besides the geep its some what modern; i do see them all the time parked or getting rutine maintenance at clyde pk diesel facility,thats in cicero il by the way![:)]

[Anonymous]

Yes, the Williams GP-38 was on my list, but this morning I received an e-mail from them saying that it is sold out. Plus, no more glossy paint. Here it is:

"Subj: Re: GP-38 Question?
Date: 1/26/2004 7:33:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: [e-mail]
To: [e-mail]
Sent from the Internet (Details)

Hello:

I am sorry but th item that you have requested is sold out. We have not produced anything with glossy paint for over 8 years! All of our locomotives are good pullers but an exact number number of passenger cars depends on many factors such as drag and track type and curves.



Thank you,
Angela Imes
Williams Electric Trains

8835- F Columbia 100 Pkwy
Columbia, MD 21045

Phone [phone]
Fax [phone]"

[brianel027]

Richard, keep in mind just because Williams direct is sold out doesn't mean dealers don't have it. Try:
www.mapajunction.com (Marty is a good guy who aims to please)
www.justrains.com (Kurt gets high marks from many)
www.wowtrains.com (Williams only dealer)

Believe me, the semi-sheen paint Williams uses now is much much better than the older high-gloss they once used.
And thank you, I do love the K-Line S-2. They've said they'll never make it again, but I think it's the best darn little diesel they've ever made (granted, for what it is). I own a fleet of them custom painted in all my favorite roads. Sure it's not a modern diesel, but it sure looks good in Norfolk Southern, CSX and Conrail. Alco-S-2's were retired by the big railroads years ago, but there are still a few out there chugging along on shortlines. There's a few here in N.Y.S. near Buffalo.
Same goes for the K-Line Alco FA 027 version. That might not look right with the MTH or other larger passenger cars, but looks perfect with the former Lionel 027 streamline passenger cars or the current Williams versions. Again, the FA's were long gone in reality, but they look good in NS, CR, and CSX. For variety I did one in the MOW pumpkin orange CSX scheme.
Those may not be modern motive power, but at least they can have modern roads. I wi***here was some modern looking stuff that looked right and ran on 027 track. I once took a scale length Williams Dash-8 shell and chopped it down to fit a 14-inch Lionel frame. Nice engine... I wish I had never sold it... Williams shells are tough to come by.
PS: Very nice of Williams to get back to you. I emailed MTH with some questions well over a month ago. I have yet to hear back yet... this is the first time I've ever had this happen with them. I've been saying it for years... Williams is on to something: simplicity, solid value and service!

[Anonymous]

Thanks everyone, and I settled on the K-Line Santa Fe Alco AA set. They are on page 68 of the 2003 Second edition catalog. Western Depot has the set for $99, and these baby Alco diesels are basically the same unit as the K-Line S-2 Switcher. I already have a couple of their S-2s, and have had good luck with one running trouble free for over 10 years.

The K-Line Alco engines are real short stubby 0-27 units, and are a perfect match for our MTH 0-27 coaches with overhead lighting. It makes for a snazzy expensive looking train that was easy on my pocketbook. As with the S-2 switchers, the front truck wants to jump the track when it under full power. A found that when Alco power unit is behind the horn unit pushing backwards it solves the problem. These are handsome little engines that are smooth running, and even have open side vents.

Richard

[brianel027]

Richard, I've talked to K-Line about your very problem of the Alco jumping the track and they don't seem interested in fixing it. The engines when run themselves don't always jump the track. But they sure do when you have the additional weight of the train cars behind.
The fix is quite simple. Pull the shell off the lead A unit. The wires will be bundled together will probably some kind of twister. Loosen this so you have some give and take in the wires. You'll notice a "C" washer holding the front truck to the frame. Remove the washer and work the wires leading to the power truck through the hole so you have some room to work. You will insert a spring under the frame between the top of the power truck and the bottom of the frame. The spring will slip over the little silver bent guide pin that goes in the slot of the frame. I find the springs out of old computer keypads work fine, but they are a thin spring, so I use 2 of them together. And you have to stretch out the springs a bit to give them a little more "spring." You could also check you hardware store for small springs. You'll want a flexible spring about 3/8-1/2 inch long when it isn't compressed. I've actually bought longer springs and cut them to size using wire snips. The spring from the Lionel "spring loaded" dump cars will also work. You'll want to place a round washer on the top of the spring between it and the frame (the spring is a smaller diameter) - so that the spring doesn't eventually work itself into the sheet metal frame thus causing drag and possibly getting stuck.
I can assure you doing this will solve the problem and I do it as stardard procedure to all my K-Line and Lionel engines of this type. And doing this is easier than it sounds and well worth the effort.
Those new issues of the ATSF Alco FA by K-Line look nicer than ever. Now maybe they could issue the same scheme with BNSF on the side as has also been done on the real ones for a little bit of modernism with a postwar look to boot.

[Anonymous]

Yes Brian, BNSF would look a little more modern for the young folks. Thanks for the modification, but I had better wait until the engine is out of warranty. The first engine that we tested while in the hobby shop burned up the e-board right in front of us, and this one that I have now has a bad traction tire. This Santa Fe FM is for my 13 year old boy, and it will only pull 5 short passenger cars at moderate speeds. Otherwise, it just sits there while the wheel slip. That’s okay, because my boy never runs his trains slow. From what I hear, the original Kusan tooling from the 1950’s was die cast, and a good puller. This new K-Line model is a feather weight, but of course the Chinese paint job and black rubber diaphragms look great. The diaphragms were a big issue with my boy, and I liked the trusty S-2 mechanism.

Do you know anything about the K-Line’s Quadra-Grip wheels? One of the traction tires was installed with a 1/8 inch gap cut all the way through, but it hasn’t come off yet. Is it glued on? Are they hard to replace? The hobby shops in this area are not helpful when it comes to selling traction tires, and want the engine left there for service.

Richard

[brianel027]

Richard, no the traction tires are pretty easy to replace. I found an dental hook tool with several attachments at a dollar store... I've gotten my dollar back out of that investment! That's handy for replacing traction tires.
Dealers don't want to bother with nickle and dime items like traction tires, even though that's probably one part they should stock. If it were my decision, I'd include an extra traction tire with every train set and spearate sale engine. "Oh but that would cost money." Yeah, I really sympathize... labor costs in China are so outrageous! There's a headline in the making: "Rising wages forces company to move from China to mainland U.S."
Richard, e-mail or call K-Line for the traction tires. Sounds like someone cobbed a traction tire on your engine... I've never bought one that had a gap in it.
I believe that K-Line uses some kind of adhesive for the traction tires. I instead use Scotch 3M Carpet Tape. I cut a thin piece on an old clean sheet of glass using a razor blade. I put the carpet tape on the wheel, remove the other piece of backing tape, then wiggle on the traction tire. I have no problems with traction tires slipping with this method.
Maybe I'm just an odd ball, but the first thing I do when I get a train item home is take it apart to see how it works. With my K-Line engines, after a quick run on the track, they come completely apart for what has become for me a long standard list of modifications, additions and improvements. I don't worry about the warranty. The things I do make the engines run, perform and look so much better it's more than totally worth the risk. Besides, one of the reasons I like those kinds of simpler engines (minus the speed and command control) is that I can make my own repairs. Which saves money and gives me the satisfaction of knowing just what is going on with my engines. I've learned to make repairs from doing it so much.

[Anonymous]

Brian, our new Lionel 6-38062 Pacific was shipped from the factory with quite a few extra traction tires in the box, and a template that fits over the top of the Cab-1 control buttons. At $219 with TMCC & Rail Sounds with Electro-Coupler that was our best bargain yet. Made in Korea!

The new $99 K-Line Alco FM is running a lot better now that the paint (or black coating) wore off of the wheels. It has about 10 hours of track time, and will finally pull a decent load without spinning the wheels. Do you know anything about the coating on new K-Line wheels, and the removal/conditioning? I sent K-Line a message requesting that they mail a new traction tire with instruction on how to install it.

You know, one of those extra K-Line S-2s could be hacked, and the power unit installed in the Alco dummy B Unit. Any ideas?

Richard

[brianel027]

Richard, absolutely. The internal components of the Alco Fa and the S-2 are the same. Even the trucks are the same. What I've done in the past is make a dummy unit with one single motor instead of two. Then keep the other motor truck in the S-2 and use that one as an extra powered unit behind a normal one. The Lehigh Valley often did this, where they ran yard switchers in multiple units on mainline service.
The only thing you would need is an extra circuit board reverse unit for the "new" powered dummy. Or you'd need to run connection wires from the complete A to the new altered Alco B unit. Circuit boards are around $13 from parts dealers. You'd want to lightly connect wires to be sure you have the unit set to run in the correct direction with the powered A unit when the power is first turned on to the track. Yes, it's possible to wire them to have the engine either start in forward or start in reverse.

Or you could be a real nut and run on DC current as I do. I've found that many of my basic pre-scale period K-Line diesels run more smoothly, consistantly on speed and more quietly on straight DC current with circuit boards completely removed. I've taken the older K-Line Budd Cars and took one motored truck out of one unit and made one of the dummy units motorized by switching trucks. I also add a little weight to the units with some other modifications. I mean, the Budd cars are basically mean to run alone anyways. Sometimes I'll add a couple passenger cars behind them or some merchandise cars. But even with the single motor, it'll pull a couple of cars just fine.

[Anonymous]

Last week when Williams e-mailed me back about the Santa Fe GP-38 they told me that it was sold out, but failed to tell me that I could PreOrder one for June 10th. Maybe that ment that the PreOrder is sold out? Here is an interesting WebPage that I found while searching with Gooogle:

http://members.aol.com/YORKtrains/williamstrains.htm

I wonder if the warbonnet is blue & yellow or silver & red?

Richard

[mpzpw3]

I own the Williams GP-38 in Santa Fe warbonnet livery, and it is, of course, an excellent runner, and the paint job is supurb. My local dealer has one in stock, and if anyone wants it, I am willing to go get it and ship. The only problem is they want the full price for it, and I doubt I can get a discount. Ma&Pa junction's website also has it, at a discount to boot, but are out of the dummy units. The GP-38 would also be fairly large for the MTH passenger car set.

[Anonymous]

Hi mpz,

Thanks for the offer. I tried my Lionel GP-9 with those small MTH coaches, and the engine looked too big. We settled on the small K-Line Alco FM AA units for $99. It’s not a modern diesel, but was low priced and with a red war bonnet paint job and black rubber diaphragms.

The entire 5 coach passenger train with Alco AA units is the new low cost made in China stuff, and cost $280 total. It looks great with overhead lighting, but the engine headlight leaves a lot to be desired.

Richard