cnw1995 wrote:Please refresh my memory about what Traditional means. 027? a bit oversized?I think Standard means runs on 031 curves.I found the 7 mm Society website (from the UK) - lot's of interesting takes on 1:43 or 7 mm modeling.
Back in the postwar days, Lionel called their 027 trains "027" and their 031 trains "O gauge" or "Scale Proportioned". During the MPC days, Lionel bought tooling from Pola or someone for 1/48 (or 1/43 maybe) scale cars and called them "Standard O". During the Fudimensions/Kughn era, Lionel called their 027 trains "Traditional Line" and 031 trains "Collector Line". However, some of the Traditional trains were carried into the Collector Line getting diecast trucks and better graphics. Diesels got field wound motors and magnetraction. During the Kughn era, Lionel briefly called their scale trains "Semi-scale". Lionel reverted back to the term standard O for thier 1/48 trains after Wellspring/Young took over. Alot of what I'm saying here is pretty general but that's how I saw it evolve from my own point of view. The terminology gets so twisted by manufacturers and hobbiests that nobody can define it and be totally right.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
BDT in Minnesota wrote: lionelsoni wrote:I don't think so. I believe the 700E had scale flanges, but ran on 1 1/4-inch track, although not on tubular track. The 773 used the same trailing-truck wheels and axles as the 700E, with the wheels pressed all the way onto the axles.Hi Bob.....I just took a glance at Dan Ponzol's book "Lionel A Century of Timeless Toy Trains" He has an interesting article that states that the 700E was available in several versions... One version has deep flanged wheels for "outside 3 rail operation" while others had wheels with scale flanges... These $75 locomotives were also available in kit form.... Various kits could be purchased separately to assemble a complete locomotive. This way, the common everyday worker could budget the purchase of the kits, and assemble his loco over a period of time... I sure like that idea!!
lionelsoni wrote:I don't think so. I believe the 700E had scale flanges, but ran on 1 1/4-inch track, although not on tubular track. The 773 used the same trailing-truck wheels and axles as the 700E, with the wheels pressed all the way onto the axles.
Hi Bob.....I just took a glance at Dan Ponzol's book "Lionel A Century of Timeless Toy Trains"
He has an interesting article that states that the 700E was available in several versions... One version has deep flanged wheels for "outside 3 rail operation" while others had wheels with scale flanges... These $75 locomotives were also available in kit form.... Various kits could be purchased separately to assemble a complete locomotive. This way, the common everyday worker could budget the purchase of the kits, and assemble his loco over a period of time...
I sure like that idea!!
That is pretty near correct but I don't think he describes the variations clearly.
The 700E had NMRA flanges (near to scale) and ran on T rail track. It was furnished with the shoe you attached for outside third rail track operation.
The 700EWX came with larger flanges for use on tubular track. Very popular with Railchief cars.
The 700K was the kit you described.
Bob Nelson
lionelsoni wrote: Who knows what Lionel O-gauge train does run on the correct track gauge?
Who knows what Lionel O-gauge train does run on the correct track gauge?
1930s scale Hudson?
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
There are three "O" scales. Americans use 1/48. Continental Europeans use 1/45. British use 1/43.5, or, as they see it, 7 millimeters per foot.
There are several "O" gauges. One and 1/4 inches, or 32 millimeters, is the original Maerklin 0 gauge and is correct for 1/45 scale. Thirty-three millimeters is correct for 1/43.5 scale. There was a short-lived "Q" gauge of 1 3/16 inch intended for 1/48 scale. And there is the current "proto 48" gauge which succeeded it, of 29.9 millimeters.
The American approach has been to keep the scale constant (at 1/48) and adjust the gauge to model standard-gauge prototype track. The European and British approaches are the opposite.
Notice that the 1/43.5 O scale is the one that HO ("half O", or 1/87) is half of.
Using a track gauge that is not in scale is not uncommon. Besides the American toy-train gauge that we are accustomed to, the British run OO scale (1/76) trains on 16.5-millimeter (HO) track. The newly popular On30 also runs on 16.5-millimeter track, which is actually 31.18 inches in 1/48, not that there were ever any 30-inch-gauge American prototypes that I know of.
magicman710 wrote: In the end, for the following reasons, it really doesnt matter what you say 1. O Scale means anything 1:43 to 1:64.2. Both 1:43 trains and 1:64 trains run on the same gauge track.I can say O scale and be referring to my 027 size trains. I am using correct terminology because they are 1:64 the real thing. They are in the O Scale catagory. All trains that are 1:43 to 1:64 scale and run on track that 1 1/4" from the outside rails are O GAUGE AND O SCALE TRAINS.Hope this helps.
1. O Scale means anything 1:43 to 1:64.
2. Both 1:43 trains and 1:64 trains run on the same gauge track.
I can say O scale and be referring to my 027 size trains. I am using correct terminology because they are 1:64 the real thing. They are in the O Scale catagory.
All trains that are 1:43 to 1:64 scale and run on track that 1 1/4" from the outside rails are O GAUGE AND O SCALE TRAINS.
Hope this helps.
Nope. It doesn't...
The term "O-Scale" to me is 1/48 period. Using the "O" in "O-Scale" implies the 1-1/4 rail space used in O-guage, and scale means modelling where all proportions are the same. And 1/48 being very close and rather more common than the actual scale of the O-guage track, that's the "Scale" everything under the "O-Scale" umbrella is.
O-Guage would simply be all trains that run on 1-1/4 rails, of which "O-scale" is a subset.
Roland
magicman710 wrote: In the end, for the following reasons, it really doesnt matter what you say 1. O Scale means anything 1:43 to 1:64.2. Both 1:43 trains and 1:64 trains run on the same gauge track.Hope this helps.
Where are you getting your facts?. The two societies that set these standards (NMRA and O Scale Kings) refer to O scale as 1/48. It was 1/45 some time ago so 1 1/4" gauge track worked out to 4'-8 1/2" but that name was changed to 17/64 scale. Very few people model in that scale anymore. 1/64 is S scale by the way no matter what gauge track it runs on.
http://www.nmra.org/beginner/scale.html
http://www.oscalekings.org/
To sum it up, O scale is 1/48 by industry standards whether it runs on two or three rails. Or 1/45 if you're an old school guy. Anything else is the term being used loosely. I think this is what kind of answer RT was looking for. It's the reason O Scale Railroading magazine was changed to O gauge Railroading When Biggar bought the publication in 87. He wanted to cater to non scale Lionel operators as well as O scalers. Lionel avoided the term in their postwar catalogs and called it "scale proportioned" so not to confuse O scalers. Or as I said in my earlier post, Flyer use the term "3/16 scale" when they made 1/64 trains to run on O gauge track.
Although many 3-railers use the terms interchangeably, they do not mean the same thing.
Scale is the proportion of the model to the prototype. In O-scale, this is expressed as 1/48 or 1:48. It means the model is 1/48th the size of the prototype. In other words 1/4 inch = 1 scale foot or 12 inches = 48 scale feet.
Gauge refers to the distance between the rails. The distance commonly used for standard O-Gauge is 1-1/4 inches. This works out to 5 scale feet. The actual distance of the prototype is 4 feet 8-1/2 inches. (*Whether through convenience or error, this slight gauge discrepency is the accepted standard in O-scale in the U.S.. However, there are "Proto:48" 2-rail modelers who accurately model the actual gauge of 4 feet 8-1/2inches in 1/48 scale.)
Most of the confusion comes about within the 3-rail community. As others have pointed out, some 3-rail manufacturers have used and continue to use different proportions for the trains that run on O-gauge track.
* The British use the same 1-1/4 inch gauge for O-scale trains. However, the scale proportion is 1/43.5 or 7mm = 1 foot. This scale proportion reflects a prototype gauge of slightly more than 4 feet 6 inches between the rails. That is the reason many model cars are 1/43 scale.
While gauge refers to the distance between the rails and scale is the proportion to fullsize the terms have acquired a shortcut usage for O and S. O gauge is ac, three rail, deep flanges, oversized couplers. S gauge is ac, two rail, deep flanges, oversized couplers. O and S scales are dc, two rail, smaller flanges, smaller couplers. O and S gauge are not generally interchangeable or interoperable with O scale and S scale respectively. The detail on many trains has advanced to the point that there is often no difference between gauge and scale - in fact many manufacturer affer the same cars and engines for both, changing wheels and couplers.
Paul
The bottom line and true answer to your question is BOTH.
Like stated above O Guage means the distance between the rails
O Scale is the prototype to model scale, which, in Standard O is 1:43, and in 027 which varies but is normally around 1:64.
O Scale and Gauge mean almost totally different things, but we train enthusiasts use it either way. To us, they mean the same thing. So dont worry about which one to say, as they mean the same thing.
Everything in O guage railroading is either 1:43 to 1:64. Those sizes are O Scale. Those are the sizes that make up O Scale.
In the end, for the following reasons, it really doesnt matter what you say
"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen
Dr. John wrote: It is rather confusing, isn't it?
The confusion is the terminology manufacturers use such as Traditional verses Standard O, Railking verses Railking Scale verses Premier. For awhile we had Scale Plate for 3 rail O scale brass. Then there's the Beeps. I have no clue what scale those things are.
Well, for example - on three rail O gauge you can run Marx (about 1/64 scale), O-27 (more or less 1/55 scale), Traditional (varies from 1/55 to about 1/50 scale) and O scale (1/48). And of course, there's also 2-rail O gauge which generally is used for O scale equipment. And, as John Long mentioned, you can run On30, which is O Scale but with HO gauge track.
It is rather confusing, isn't it?
Big Walnut Railroader wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but generally O gauge is 3 rail equipment and O scale is 2 rail equipment.
That's when the terms are used loosely. But, technically no.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
That may be the common use of the terms, but gauge refers to the space between the rails, not the number of rails. Scale refers to the proportions or size.
The terms are used loosely but are interchangeble.
Gauge refers to the distance between the rails. With O gauge it's 1 1/4"
Scale refers to the proportions of equipment. With O scale, it's 1/48.
O scale narrow gauge equipment such as ON30 runs on HO gauge track. It is still O scale because it is 1/48.
027 trains which are roughly 1/55 scale are not O scale but they run on O gauge track.
Before WWII, American Flyer made S scale trains that ran on O gauge track. 3/16" scale is what Flyer called these trains. After the war, Flyer switched to using S gauge track.
The term is interchangeable when you run O scale trains (1/48) on O gauge track.
The term is used loosely to differentiate between 2 rail O scale and 3 rail O scale. In other words, if you're an O scaler, it is assumed you run 2 rail track. If you're an O gauger, you run three rail track. If you're a Louie, it means you run only Lionel 3 rail and are blatant about it.
It's "O" gauge, but you will have within "O" gauge the loco's & rolling stock will fall into the traditional, semi-scale or scale dimension category.
Now it's clear as mud.
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I've always gotten this mixed up I always thought it was O gauge and ho or n scale but on a Trains (that they sent to preview) vidio they were talking about an s gauge layout a guy had with (now heres the biggy and he was running Lionel post war train set) O scale outer layout.
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