Problems with Lionel CW-80 tranformers

[lionelsoni]

How about Maerklin?  They use AC, at 16 volts.  Perhaps there is a 230-volt Maerklin transformer model that is big enough to run some modern Lionel.

[Nick12DMC]

Wolverine, I would agree with you on a lot of your points. As you state its a public relations disaster. 

The problem is the average man in the street is probably unaware of the diffrence in power frequency from one country to the next. They would read the manual and assume that a  230-120V step-down transformer would do the job. It needs to state in the catalougue "Do not connect to 50Hz power sources, contact a European dealer for power supply information".

 Added confusion here in the UK/Europe is that most model trains, people have had contact with run on DC.

Its the sucsess of Polar Express that has brought this issue to the fore in the UK. Last Christmas lots of these sets found their way to the UK. Now the CW-80 can be replaced by a UK power supply as polar just has a air whistle. However such was the demand that the UK Lionel dealer ran out of power supplies!

 Now older two part power supplies with the wall wart just needed the wart replacing with a UK version. After CW-80 introduction the whole thing needs to be replaced with a MTH control unit and a UK wall wart. However your better off getting a DC power supply and a Pure Sine Inverter as this costs around the same and solves problems with TMCC and Trainsounds.

Its the UK dealer and the Lionel Collectors Club UK that have had most of the phone calls and emails from unhappy buyers.

Whats frustrating is that this is all set to happen again this Christmas!

It would be nice to have a positive response from Lionel and show some support for their European dealers and customers.

Nick  

 

 

 

  

[Anonymous]

For the record: The owner's manual for the CW-80 clearly states on the front cover* that the CW-80 is rated for an "INPUT: 120 VAC; 60 HZ ONLY." (Black emphasis mine.)

The manual can be read online and/or printed at the Lionel.com website. I strongly recommend that anyone considering purchasing this transformer read the manual cover-to-cover, word-for-word, and also research the archives on this forum and the others.

Parents should test any and all such equipment well prior to giving it as a present to a child.

As has been suggested repeatedly, Lionel should do more to inform prospective buyers of the limitations. Why they haven't moved more aggressively to mitigate this public relations disaster continues to baffle and disappoint me.

*This reference pertains to the 11/05 version of the owner's manual. The earlier version (2/03) contains a similar warning on p.3 with the admonition "Do not connect to any other power source."

[Nick12DMC]

"You are absolutely right.  No parent wants to see the disappointment on a child's face after seeing that their new Christmas present doesn't work.  No one wants to have to wait a few weeks for the replacement of what is one of  the most important part of the kit.  And you definitely don't what to have to pull out any tools and have to fix it right yourself (not to mention that most Newbie's cant)."

I'll second that. A number of us in the UK and Europe have been banging on about the problems we have had with the CW-80 not working correctly on 50Hz power. My main issue is that the unit itself does say on the back 60Hz, however its not stated in the catalogue. If these problems are not going to be fixed along with Trainsounds and certain TMCC 50Hz issues the least that a manufacture should do is put a note in the literature. So newbie's are aware before they buy that the item needs a 60Hz power source. Finding out on Christmas morning should not be acceptable.

A lot of items for UK use are bought through online dealers so I would say that a dealer service bulletin  should be sent stating that customers in countries with 50Hz power should be told when purchasing an item that has power frequency issues. This would also keep the UK dealer up to date.

 Just my 2 cents,

Nick

 

 

 

[darianj]

Some people who don't see a big problem with these are missing one point I'd like to make: if someone new to the hobby buys a ready-to-run set with a bad transformer, that may turn them off to our great hobby. We want newbies to have that train running right out of the box. A child's excitement and enthusiasm dashed because the train won't run right out of the box would probably make a lot of parents return the set to the store and buy something else.

You are absolutely right.  No parent wants to see the disappointment on a child's face after seeing that their new Christmas present doesn't work.  No one wants to have to wait a few weeks for the replacement of what is one of  the most important part of the kit.  And you definitely don't what to have to pull out any tools and have to fix it right yourself (not to mention that most Newbie's cant).

[riverrailfan]

CW-80 will run my PS1 engines as long I use a lighted track section. The only other thing it does is activate the bell when briefly putting the throttle to full. Goes off when you do it again. I don't know if this happens with any other locos but the Thomas and Percy will not switch directions with out the lighted track section which comes inthe RTR Thomas set. 

[jimhaleyscomet]

I would call Lionel, I think it has a one year warranty.  I would act very fast on this.

Jim H

[Anonymous]

I just opened my train set that I got last christmas and noticed that my transformer's light doesn't even turn on.  Then I tried to run teh train and all I heard out of the transformer was a little grumble.  This set came with the FasTrack for anyone that cares.  I then pulled out my transforem from my old set from Lionel witht he meatl track that is all rusty and that tranformer works the train, but not as good as on the metal track.  I read taht pretty much these transformers are crap, so my question is, How do I go about calling Lionel and getting it replaced and do you think they would swap it for a working one since It ahs been almost a year since it was purchased(by my wife)?

[danrunner]

With all of the furor surrounding this topic, I finally took my only cw-80 out of the box and gave it a test w/ my copper range set...success. I hope Lionel figures out a way to make these things more reliable for other people and their problems. It's sharp looking, but I'd use a transformer housed in a velveeta box if it did the job.

Some people who don't see a big problem with these are missing one point I'd like to make: if someone new to the hobby buys a ready-to-run set with a bad transformer, that may turn them off to our great hobby. We want newbies to have that train running right out of the box. A child's excitement and enthusiasm dashed because the train won't run right out of the box would probably make a lot of parents return the set to the store and buy something else.

[ADCX Rob]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wrmcclellan

... - I am curious. What problems other than reversed bell and whistle functions does one get if you attache the red leads to the track common (outside rail) and the black leads to the center rail?

None - except that the Bell Button (now for Whistle/Horn) will "latch ON" for about 2.5 seconds and you may have to hold the Whistle/Horn button(now the bell button) down a couple of seconds to activate/deactivate the bell sounds(just like we do now with the "Sound Activation Buttons").

Rob

[wrmcclellan]

Wolverine - I am curious. What problems other than reversed bell and whistle functions does one get if you attache the red leads to the track common (outside rail) and the black leads to the center rail? I have not seen (or I missed) any OGR posts about other problems related to reversing the track output terminals.

jdrane - the wiring explanation is clearly given in LandN's post above.

There is no circuit breaker. The CW-80 goes into a current limting mode to counter short-circuits. One could certainly add a circuit breaker external to the transformer. Since this is an 80W unit, I recommend a 4 amp breaker or fuse.

[Anonymous]

I asked how you reverse wire the CW-80 transformers and if there is a circuit breaker in them. Would appreciate replies of help by sending to my email [e-mail] Thanks very much...

[Anonymous]

How do you reverse wire these transformers and is there some kind of circuit breaker in them?

[Anonymous]

ADCX Rob,

As I pointed out in my long post above (item #2) the official Owner's Manual for the CW-80 transformer manual is itself internally inconsistent as to which post to hook up to which rail. It is not surprising then that there are problems, errors and inconsistencies among different manuals issued for different combinations of devices at different times. It's a mess, and to some extent it depends on whom you talk to.

Allan Miller has it right, although evidently his experiences with the CW-80 have been more problematic than mine, and his comments are therefore somewhat less forgiving.

From reading the posts about the CW-80 for more than two years, and occasionally commenting, I merely set out to try to help a few of the people whose frustrations with the normal operation of the CW-80 (to run a train) might be due to misunderstandings and/or failure to read the manual carefully -- or even to have a full manual in their possession.

It's hard to know where to begin when some forum members won't even take their transformer out of it's box to try it; and others, who obviously have never even seen a CW-80 much less used one, speak "authoritatively" about what a dog it is.

So, if you are happy with your adjustments and/or modifications, more power to you.

As for me, I will run mine the way Joshua built it, using for guidance my just-slightly-modified Owner's Manual, all the while eagerly awaiting the DW-80, or maybe the EW-160....

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

The outward appearance of the CW-80 is very nice. Beyond that, it's a notoriously unreliable mechanism that is, at best, an embarrassment to Lionel and a pain in the butt for many owners. I give Lionel an "A" for attempting to come up with an attractive and versatile transformer, and an "F" for execution.

[ADCX Rob]

QUOTE: Originally posted by wolverine49

According to personal conversations with Lionel Service, this "reverse hookup" scheme is not recommended, although some folks have used it for special purposes."

It's like calling the IRS... different answer every time. Lionel should check their own manuals... check out page 18:

http://www.lionel.com/products/productnavigator/InstructionManuals/73-1990-250.pdf

QUOTE: Simply connecting the red posts to the outside rails and the black ones to the center rail will NOT turn the CW-80 into the transformer we all thought we were buying.

True...

QUOTE: Rather, it will create as many new problems as it solves.

Not really, if you follow through w/ the narrative LandN gives. He addresses each item with a reasonable fix, except for the "latch" issue on the "re-assigned" but functioning whistle/horn button.

Rob

[Anonymous]

ADCXRob,

Perhaps, but try pressing your whistle/horn button and see what happens.

As I said above: "You can get some interesting results by reversing the leads from what is recommended above, but doing so will reverse the functioning of the whistle/horn and bell buttons. According to personal conversations with Lionel Service, this "reverse hookup" scheme is not recommended, although some folks have used it for special purposes."

You have now tumbled to some of the "interesting results." Dale Manquen, at the OGR forum, and perhaps LandN on this thread have outlined major alterations of the CW-80 that are 'way beyond the capabilities of the average user. Just getting inside the case is a chore, and involves circumventing a system ("tamper-proof" screws) that was designed to keep amateurs out.

Simply connecting the red posts to the outside rails and the black ones to the center rail will NOT turn the CW-80 into the transformer we all thought we were buying. Rather, it will create as many new problems as it solves.

So far, no one has contradicted me on any facet of proper CW-80 operation; and never have I recommended doing anything that would void the warranty or the Underwriters Lab Certification. Ignore this advice at your own risk.

I give up.

wolverine49

[ADCX Rob]

QUOTE: Originally posted by otpete

The gate would go down and stay down wether the insulated section was activated or not. Anyone else try to use an insulated track section with their CW-80? This would solve a big mystery if so!

Pete

Mystery solved above in this section:

"The next item I changed was the transformer output wiring. As built, the U terminals are the outputs. A & B are common."

Now you can use the CW-80 as you intend, realizing this tidbit.

Rob

[Anonymous]

Hmmmmm....makes me wonder.

I tried to use a piece of insulated track to activate a gate crossing on my Christmas layout with the CW-80 that came with the NY Flyer set.

I tried every conceivable way to wire that thing, carefuly following instructions in a book, to no avail. The gate would go down and stay down wether the insulated section was activated or not. Anyone else try to use an insulated track section with their CW-80? This would solve a big mystery if so!

Pete

[Anonymous]

I have followed posts on this transformerfor quite a while. I have resolved most issues with mine with the following modifictions much of it was gleaned here and on OGR. The issues with MTH engines can be resolved with an 18v lightbulb in the circuit.


I just thought I would fill you in on all of the modifications that I have made to my CW-80. Of course I realize that I have voided any warranty left and more importantly, UL approval.
Starting with the line power I have reversed the leads going to the core. The wide blade of the plug now goes to the black lead of the core. This is the lead with the fuse in the winding. I did this on the off chance I would ever use it with my Z4000. The CW-80 was out of phase to the Z4000. I have checked the phase of my Z4000 against other Z 4000s both older and newer than mine they were all the same.
The next item I changed was the transformer output wiring. As built, the U terminals are the outputs. A & B are common. Simply wiring the center rail to the “U” post and the outside rails to “A” will result in the bell and whistle functions being reversed. I followed Frank Maguire’s post of Apr 16th 4:48PM in which he states “the fused transformer lead should be connected into the board termination point labeled “GND” ”. Frank goes on to talk about the black wires should go to the point marked AC+ AC_ and “the red wires of this set of four should be moved to the outer termination points”.
Now that the outputs were switched, the whistle button controlled the bell and vice versa. Using Dale Manquen’s schematic I was able to switch this. With through hole resistors I ran the R6 button point to pin 14 and R5 button point to pin 12 of the microprocessor. No damage was done to the board I just went from resistor pad to resistor pad. I put sleeving on the resistor leads. The whistle button now activates the whistle and the bell button the bell. The horn/whistle responds immediately but “holds” about 3-4 seconds. The bell button has to be “pressed” about 3 seconds to engage or turn off the bell.
The last item to take care of was the cooling. Dale Manquen talked about the fan running off of positive half of the AC waveform. Turning the diode around to the marked direction on the board and switching the fan leads would help reduce the DC in the transformer core. I followed this coupled with the addition of the 100mfd capacitor that Don Holdaway suggested. The fan is now running at 10.9 volts and much much noisier now. The other thing I did to improve the cooling was to break out the internal ribs of the cooling vents. I did this with a small pair of side cutters. From the outside of the case there really isn’t much of a change except you can see inside the unit.
I have been fond of this transformer as it is self contained. My experience however was not good. The first thing I noticed a year ago when I opened it up was the fan diode backwards. (Electronics manufacturing background showing through) Now that I have made the above changes all of the black wires to the board are in the same place. I agree with Frank Maguire in his April 16th post where he thought the transformer was designed here but there changes made along the way. This is somewhat confirmed by Don Holdaway December 11th post. The only additional thing needed is to have a light bulb in the circuit if you are running PS2. This is a lot to have to change to fix an otherwise nice transformer.

[Nick12DMC]

I think Lionel got the look of the CW-80 about right. Its a impressive looking lump
that looks like a 1930's art deco bakalite object. (some would say it is best just looked at....on a shelf)
However to make this more constructive some thought needs to be put in to re-engineering the internals.
I freely admit to being biased to a European standpoint on certain modifications.
( My son, age 7 could not play with his Christmas present for 3 months)

1) Put a RCD in to replace the internal fuse.
2) Replace the fan with a more reliable unit. (ours failed)
3)Re-design the bell and whistle electronics to be 50Hz (cycle) compatable and
more conventional in operation i.e. pure sine etc.
4) Have a separate transformer. Which would allow a UK/Europe transformer unit to be swaped by UK/European dealers.

I am sure this list is not exhaustive[:)]

Regards
Nick

[Anonymous]

Try as I might, I can't seem to stay out of CW-80 threads.

This lengthy post is for people who own CW-80 transformers but who are afraid to take them out of the box; or who have measured "strange" voltages; or who can't get their e-units to cycle properly; or who can't get the programmable accessory outputs to work right; or who can't get their constant-voltage switches to function, etc. etc. It will be of little or no use to those whose CW-80's are just plain dead (no green light, no fan, no throttle) or perhaps have some of the above functions working, but (Lionel) trains or accessories still won't run. I hope it helps somebody; and I think it might, because, if my analyses are correct, many of you own CW-80's that are working as designed, just not as you expect. Perhaps you can find the answer to your CW-80 question here: Feel free to comment.

1. If you haven't got an owner's manual, download and print one from the Lionel.com website at:

http://www.lionel.com/products/productnavigator/InstructionManuals/71-4198-250.pdf

2. Note, that while the bulk of the owner's manual is correct, there is one glaring inconsistency. The hookup wiring diagram on p.5 is wrong; the associated text is correct: the red post (A) should be connected to the center rail; the black post (U under A) should go to an outside rail.

Unlike some other Lionel transformers, notably the postwar ZW, the two "U" posts are not common. Do not connect them together!

The accessory posts B and U-under-B should only be connected to accessories that are electrically isolated (insulated) from the track. This stricture rules out using them for "constant voltage" switch inputs -- a real disappointment.

You can get some interesting results by reversing the leads from what is recommended above, but doing so will reverse the functioning of the whistle/horn and bell buttons. According to personal conversations with Lionel Service, this "reverse hookup" scheme is not recommended, although some folks have used it for special purposes. I don't..

Try using double banana plugs (or two single ones) for hookup. This should eliminate the stripped or broken screw posts.

3. Throw away your voltmeters -- they will only add to your confusion. You cannot measure the output voltages accurately with an analog voltmeter, at least not without a load on the transformer.

If the e-unit in your locomotive will not cycle properly, try placing a small additional load on the transformer: a lamp is usually recommended, such as a lighted passenger car or caboose, or an illuminated bumper, or an illuminated lock-on, etc. Usually this will clear it up.

4. To program the accessory posts, first do (3) above; second, connect the accessory to the "B" and "U under B" terminals and follow the programming instructions in the owner's manual. When the accessory operates at the speed you want it to, stop. Certain accessories that cannot be isoltated from the track cannot be used with the CW-80 if hooked up as recommended.

5. If the device initially worked properly and then quit "without warning" some solid-state part may have blown, or there was a "cold solder joint," or something simply came loose. More likely, a fuse that is inside the case blew. This, along with generally poor quality control, is the dumbest thing about the CW-80. The device is not intended to be serviced by anyone. Neither Lionel headquarters nor "Authorized Service Stations" will touch them. Even to get inside the case requires a special triangular screwdriver. Tampering (getting inside the case) is NOT RECOMMENDED. There are no serviceable parts inside -- except perhaps for that d--n 50 cent fuse!

Why Lionel would make a device with an easily blown but non-replaceable fuse is beyond me!

6. Contact your local dealer or Lionel service if you have a dead or malfunctioning one which you purchased at an authorized dealer, for which you have a receipt, and which is within the one-year warranty period. All others are on your own -- I don't have any ideas.

7. Anyone who has an unopened CW-80 or a used one that works (and doesn't want it) please contact me by e-mail and I will advise how you can send it to me, at your cost, of course. I'll take it off your hands. I don't want any dead ones, though.

8. I have had four of these devices. One performed erratically, the other three are all operating perfectly -- so far.

9. For reasons inherent in the design, the CW-80 will not operate many (if not all) MTH PS-1 locomotives, and perhaps more by manufacturers other than Lionel. As far as I know, the Lionel CW-80 will run all Lionel trains, as long as the entire electrical load is no more than about 80 watts. The general rule is that if the locomotive requires a pure sine-wave output, the CW-80 will not run it. This is because the CW-80 puts out a "chopped" or "clipped" waveform

10. Even though the CW-80 often comes packaged with "starter sets,: it is not a direct substitute for the older Lionel 1033 transformers. In some ways it is better (horn and bell controls, programmable accessory output) and some ways it is worse (poor quality control, inability to run switches (turnouts) using a constant-voltage plug, etc.)

In Lionel's words, the CW-80 is "unlike any other transformer Lionel has ever made." You can say that again! Nevertheless, much of what has been complained about on this and other forums is actually due to operator error, generally having to do with not reading the manual. Not all problems, by any means -- but many!

11. It is normal to have to hold the bell button down for 2 or 3 seconds to operate it.

12. It is normal for a basic home voltmeter to read 19 volts with the throttle down at 0 and no load on the transformer. It's confusing and meaningless. Put the voltmeter back in the drawer and run a train. (See item 3 above.)

13. In my experience, most dealers know virtually nothing about the CW-80. After all, no one has been trained to service them. (See item 5 above.)

14. The foremost "lay-authority" that I know of on this subject is Dale Manquen, who typically posts on the OGR forum. Check him out.

15. Lionel has managed to turn a promising product into a quality-control disaster and a public relations nightmare.

Frequently I see complaints where Lionel staff have brushed off customers who have just purchased a (now) $120 product that there "is no problem," when the problem is that the customer firmly believes that there is a problem -- whether the device is "working as designed" or not. In any business, whenever a customer thinks there is a problem. the company has a problem, whether the customer has a "real" problem or not. I shouldn't have to point this out.

Having said that, I must add that Lionel personnel have always been kind, courteous and helpfful to me.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

How about we all just ignore it until it goes away? Mine doesn't bother me much If I leave it on a shelf in a the basement until I put up the xmas layout.

Wow, I feel better already....

[danrunner]

How about killing the CW-80? With this kind of reaction, could we affect Lionel's production and encourage/force them to come up with a better solution? AND what would that solution look like?

[Nick12DMC]

This unit is a real pain over here in europe as well. Its not 50Hz compatable and running it on 50Hz causes the whistle and bell to go off all the time.
As I understand it the BW-80 worked fine when the US power brick was
replaced with a UK brick.
The CW-80 puts people off going into O gauge as its more often than not
the first contact they have with the hobby.
They may buy that first set but then just give up and it sits gathering dust.
I know one guy over here that has sold most of his Lionel and gone
over to MTH because of the frustration involved with 50Hz incompatability
of the CW-80 and Trainsounds system.

If I was Lionel's MD I would be hunting down the QA Manager, and giving him
some motovation!

Regards
Nick

[Anonymous]

I purchased a new CW-80 transformer 3 weeks ago. It seemed to work properly until yesterday when it went completely dead. Following the advice of this topic, I called Lionel Customer Service. They were rather rude and unwilling to help as I no longer have the sales receipt. Who keeps the receipts for everything they buy? I'm so digusted! I'll never purchace another new Lionel product -- made in China with poor quality.

[ChiefEagles]

There is another thread on this somewhere. Here is the info I gave then. Call Lionel at [phone], extension 1350 and tell them you have a bad transformer. Look on the bottom. I do know that batch 8/04 is giviing problems. They are suppose to replace them. If they balk, give them a hard time.

[Anonymous]

Well,
--Now I am experiencing problems w/ my CW-80. The problem is a little similar to the one in the first message. The transformer comes on, but there is no power to the track and the LED does not come on. Could it be because there is no power looping in the track it is plugged into or what? It was working just fine yesterday, but today it don't do nothin'. I even swiched the wires around; Still nothing. Can you please tell me about this problem?

--Thanks, Hill Davis

[Anonymous]

I have been considering getting back into the hobby after 50 years. All this talk of bad CW-80's is enough to make a person think twice. I wonder how many people are not having trouble with their CW-80's. It will be interesting to see if the replacements that Lionel is sending out are any better. I hope those of you that are getting replacements will let us know how they work.