Unfortunately, the core will saturate just the same whether there is any load on the transformer or not and regardless of the positions of the handles. It has only to do with the voltage waveform that you put into the power cord (flex).
If you were to draw a picture of the voltage waveform, it would be a sine wave. In the US it has peaks at about 170 volts and half cycles that are 1/120 second (8.3 milliseconds) long. In England, the peaks are at 325 volts and the half cycles are 1/100 second (10 milliseconds) long. As the voltage changes going through each half cycle, the magnetic flux in the iron core of the transformer changes. The flux is at its maximum, one polarity or the other, at the axis crossing. Then, throughout the half cycle, it changes from that maximum, through zero, to the maximum in the other direction. Then during the next half cycle it changes back.
The amount of change in the flux is proportional to the area under each half cycle of the waveform. The core can support only so much flux. After that, when the flux stops increasing, the current into the primary winding increases greatly, since it is the changing flux that opposes the line (mains) voltage to keep the transformer from drawing large amounts of current. So, since the European half-cycles are longer than ours, by a factor of 60/50, you would have to keep the voltage lower by a factor of 50/60 to keep the area under the curve the same, or significantly less than half the normal European voltage.
The saturation is not sudden when the voltage-time limit is exceeded, but somewhat gradual. So the designer has to decide just how much saturation can be tolerated. When the transformer is small, it is easier for the heat to get out, and the cost of the extra energy is negligible; so small transformers usually are designed to saturate more than large ones. But when Lionel makes a point of stressing that the ZW can be used on 60 hertz only, although the smaller VW is okay on 50, that is a tipoff that they designed the ZW as close to the edge as they thought they could get away with.
Bob Nelson
If you are running only one or 2 engines and 2 or 3 cars in conventional mode, I would not worry too much about core saturation. Just don't run it for hours at a time.
If you have any lights on the layout, run them from another power pack designed for 50Hz use, or from a DC power pack.
Lad Nagurney
lionelsoni wrote:I would be cautious about running a ZW on 50 hertz, unless you reduce the voltage appropriately. ....(There is a way to use another, smaller train transformer as an autotransformer to drop the 115 volts that you are likely to have down to 104 volts; but I don't want to describe it here because of the risk that someone who doesn't know what he is doing will try it.)
I would be cautious about running a ZW on 50 hertz, unless you reduce the voltage appropriately. ....
(There is a way to use another, smaller train transformer as an autotransformer to drop the 115 volts that you are likely to have down to 104 volts; but I don't want to describe it here because of the risk that someone who doesn't know what he is doing will try it.)
Bob, one follow up question if I may. If I am running just one dual motored can engine train (with three lighted passenger cars) on one line and a modern can steam engine on a second line can I avoid "core" staturation by limiting my power draw. Or can I avoid core saturation by just not putting the handles up to full power?
Jim H
Yesterday I added a link to this thread in FAQ / Newbie section. At least that should be a start.
Also to clarify Nick's excellent summary above, my MTH PS2.0 locomotives are running just fine on 50 hz in conventional mode. The 50hz frequency does not impact the sound systems. Everything in conventional mode behaves the same as 60hz operation. I checked an MTH Z-1000 transformer I had and it is not labeled for 50hz operation.
Could 50Hz information have some sort of permanent home on the CTT forum?
Its a question that gets asked a lot. I expect that there will be a large number of newbies importing the Hogwarts set to the UK/Europe this Christmas. This happened with the Polar Express and the UK dealer was swamped with phone calls from people who had problems.
Would this be possible Bob K?
Nick
Thanks Nick for the complete (as possible) update. I will start with DCS (many of my engines are PS2.0) and get into the inverter later.
Will, thanks for the link to the DCS manual. I will be doing some reading!
I would be cautious about running a ZW on 50 hertz, unless you reduce the voltage appropriately. Lionel pointedly specified the similar but smaller VW for "110-125 volts, 50-60 cycles [per second]" and the ZW for "110-125 volts, 60 cycles [per second] only." The worst case, 125 volts at 60 hertz, is equivalent to 104 volts at 50 hertz, as far as core saturation and the resultant heating are concerned. Small transformers, like toy-train transformers, are usually designed to operate a little into saturation to begin with, to make them cheaper and smaller than they would be with a more conservative design. Unless you can come up with that 104 volts (and don't mind having the output range reduced proportionately, to 18 or 19 volts), I recommend against using the ZW.
A Day Without Trains is a Day Wasted
Jim, Forget the car battery. I use a 230V AC to 13.8V DC power supply.
For a 300W pure sine inverter the item below is what I use.
http://www.amperordirect.co.uk/products/300W-12v_Power_Supply.asp
This simulates a fully charged car battery. And provides 25 amps of DC power for £39.
This happly runs a old ZW and a command base.
If you are going to need more than 300W then you need to source a more powerful 12V or 13.8V DC supply. I have a 1000W 13.8V unit I got from ebay to run a 1500W pure sine inverter. Obvously I can only use up to the 1000W limit of the DC supply. (The inverter was a special deal and its no load draw is the same as a 1000W model)
There is some confusion over what effects 50Hz has on diffrent items so here's the facts as I have found them.
Conventional locos with air whistle will work on 50Hz
Lionel Trainsounds malfuntions on 50Hz, must be run on 60Hz
Lionel CW-80 malfuntions on 50Hz, must be run on 60Hz
TMCC, A powermaster and cab 1 will work with 50Hz and run conventional locos with air whistle. Certain TMCC locos will operate on 50Hz with the command base and track powered from a 50Hz source however other TMCC locos are uncontrolable. There is no list of which items work and which don't. Best option with no problems is 60Hz track power, 60Hz command base power.
What is very important is earthing of the command base. You need to make sure the inverter 120V AC power socket is earthed. Think of the inverter and DC power supply as a car with negative earth. Thus the earth pin on the inverter needs to have a link wire on to the negative DC power feed. The amperor DC supply has the DC negative internally linked to the earth of the 230V AC side. Thus if you use a continuity tester and place one probe in the earth of the inverter and the other on the UK 230V plug earth pin you should have continuity.
If you don't chances are the inverter needs a earth wire soldering internally between the 120V socket earth pin and the earth stud usually found on the rear of the unit.
MTH DCS should run fine on 50Hz just switch it to 50Hz mode via the remote. This is fine if you set up a dedicated MTH loop. Obvoulsy to run with TMCC locos you need to run DCS from 60Hz.
You may have to watch US spec transformers running on 120V 50Hz from stepdown transformers. Even if they don't malfunction like the CW-80 (DC offset circuits). They will run warmer on 50Hz. I would use the MTH transformers as a first choice but take care.
Hope this helps
willpick wrote:Jim, your best bet is to use your DCS to control your trains, as it WILL work on 50 HZ. details are in chapter 7 of DCS manual. As to what transformer to use, i'd go with the OLD ZW. you will still need a step down transformer, of course--. You should be able to run everything except your TMCC engines(unless you have the MTH adapter cable). Hope this gets you up and running
I have a step down transformer. Now if I could just find my manual! It has been hiding since I moved to England. I'm sure it is in a box somewhere! I tried downloading it from the MTS site but apparently that is not an option.
Surrey, England
You will get more Hum and less efficiency which means more heat out of the transformer. You will get the same from each motor on the track because you feeding the rail 50 HZ also.
Why not run your trains on D.C. You can run an A.C motor on D.C. But you can not run a D.C motor on A.C.
I am about to hook up my 3-rail trains for Christmas here in the U.k. I know many people often run a 60HZ converter (Which I have but I will need a car battery). Do any of the transformers or control options work on 50 HZ? I have a new ZW with TMCC remote (could run in command or conventional if either works), an old ZW, K-line transformers and MTH transformers (could run conventional or through DCS). I have conventional new locomotives (Williams, KLine, Beeps, Lionel), PS2.0 MTH locos, and TMCC locomotives. I will limit to one type if I can avoid buying the car battery.
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