I would like to thank Mr Williams publicly for his excellent products and great service to the hobby the last 35 years. I have bought quite a few of his products over the years and they have all been great products that run well. If Mr Willaims is reading this, well done sir.
George
ChesBchRy makes some very good points, well beyond what I initially said... and thanks Poppyl.
While it appears things are moving ahead, the deal could still fail. And while all the speculation in other places is quite entertaining, much of it is also dreaming and probably not practical.
If level heads prevail, think of it this way: Bachmann is considering the purchase of an existing company with a well-respected, established reputation for mostly BASIC solid toy trains. Why would they waste their money buying the tooling for products that are basically postwar Lionel reproductions to then try and change them into high-end scale products? That makes absolutely no sense.
Lionel has already stated it has no plans for any further licensing of TMCC, not that they couldn't change their position. There's plenty of speculation for the introduction of DCC into the product line, but this makes no practical sense either. The last thing the hobby needs is yet one more incompatible operating system, or even another totally new incompatible track system... remember, Atlas is also introducing a new line of Industrial Rail track. Let's hope these new systems are compatible with other existing track types.
Williams's strength was the basic well-made, solid (no fragile details) affordable product line that appealed to a large segment of operators. For many operators who feel slighted and forgotten by the other companies with their push toward high-end details, electronics and prices, Williams offered an outstanding alternative. And those products were offered in the widest selection of road names ever offered by any 3-rail train importer outside of Ready Made Toys.
If this is the strength of Williams, and what Williams is best known for, why would any company like Bachmann want to pay millions of dollars to buy it only then to basically toss out the tooling and dies to completely change them?? Or to increase the prices so much as to turn off would be and established Williams's customers? Williams's weakness was poor visibility via a retail network of established dealers. And their website wasn't always effectively used to the best advantage and often without updates.
It's not that there isn't a market for expensive high-end scale trains. But that market has been over catered to, and is IMHO greatly exaggerated in importance. Part of the reason K-Line went under was that they put too much emphasis and development money into this limited area of the market (in the name of competition and being NUMBER ONE). Again, Lionel sells 10's of thousands of starter sets and related products, and a couple thousand at best, of any high-end locomotive. YES, Williams does have some tooling and dies for near scale products. But those dies would need work to bring them up to par to compete with Lionel, MTH and Atlas... but maybe that's part of the plan too.
If it were Bachmann's intention to compete with the other train companies with high end scale detailed products, they'd be better off just starting from scratch with new tooling and dies, and not purchasing the dies for products that are in many cases, reproductions of postwar Lionel products.
Obviously, should this deal come to fruition, Bachmann isn't spending an untold sum of money to buy tooling and dies to then fail. While level, practical thinking is sometimes absent from some of this hobby's participants, I'm sure it isn't absent at Bachmann.
brianel, Agent 027
"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."
I have no doubt that the Williams line of trains will continue. Bachman is a good company and is producing some outstanding model trains, particularly in their HO Spectrum and On30 lines.
My only concern would be an increase in price. However, Atlas has expanded the Industrial Rails lines while keeping the prices reasonable, so I believe Bachman would probably follow suit.
Ches: excellent analysis of the takeover situation. I, too, think that this could work out well for Bachman. Some real synergy there, to use the biz term. As for Jerry Williams, a real boon to the o-gauge market for many years; he's earned a great retirement -- hope he gets it!
Thanks, Jerry, you done good!!
Here's my thoughts on this subject...
Bachmann...has a broad based customer network and a long history
of involvement in the hobby. Plasticville, Ho, N and G trains, scenery
items, etc. They recently lost their warehouses in a fire in Baltimore
which affected their ability to reach customers. Bachmann also has
"name recognition" and a certain amount of "brand loyalty" associated
with their products. Their products are of good quality. Their products
are very affordable to the hobbyist, especially the 'entry-level' hobbyist
or 'casual operator' type of hobbyist. Their products have a good
warranty and repair/replacement program and policy.
Williams...Has an excellent product in O gauge. Quality is consistently
good. Has an established following in O gauge. Is reasonably priced for
the 'entry-level' hobbyist or 'casual operator' type of hobbyist. However,
Williams does not have the name recognition on the scale of Bachmann,
Williams does have an excellent reputation in the hobby world. Williams
has a good repair/replacement program and policy. And Williams does
have a warehouse and distribution network already in place. Williams
does not however market anything beyond trains themselves whereas
Bachmann has a whole line of complimentary products!
Conclusion...It appears that this is a good fit of companies which will
allow the expansion of Williams' original concepts in O guage with the
use of the Bachmann talent and corporate structure that the smaller
Williams firm just does not have. It has been rumored that Bachmann
is exploring a new track system for O gauge. With the aquisition of the
Williams line this would be an excellent time to come out with it. By doing
so I predict that you will see Bachmann releasing COMPLETE O gauge
train sets (train, track, transformer AND scenery/accessories ala Plasticville)
and they will be able to price a COMPLETE SET competitively against the
other train manufacturers/importers who only sell a train and track and
SOMETIMES a transformer with them, but NO scenery or accessories.
Maybe some you magazine execs should be watching and working on
advertising strategies concerning this! Bachmann's name is right up there
with Lionel and Atlas as far as history in the hobby over the past several
DECADES, unlike other relative 'newcomers' of less than 40-50 years duration.
Even people who aren't into trains recognize Bachmann for Plasticville and
those G scale 'Christmas Trains'.
Jerry Williams has done this hobby a GREAT service by offering an affordable,
durable, quality product at an affordable price. He has been doing it for
over 35 years. Apparently he wants to retire yet leave his product line in
good hands for the future. Looks like he's done it!
I would recommend that everyone re-read brianel's first post on this thread. I think that he summarized the situation quite well. Williams is/was a niche' player in a market that is moving to consolidation both horizontally and vertically. As much as I would like to see Williams go on as is forever, I can't fault Jerry for grabbing the brass ring when it came his way. He's done a lot for our hobby and deserves the right to enjoy his retirement.
I just hope that his employees are taken care of properly and that the LHS's that have handled his products don't get treated like second class citizens by the new owners.
Poppyl
I am saddened to hear the news that Williams is being sold.
Heck, I haven't gotten over the Dodgers leaving Brooklyn yet.
I have a Bachman Spectrum N scale Consolidation. The detail is incredible and it runs silky smooth. I think Bachman can do some good with Williams. I doubt Bachman or anyone who buys Williams will imediately disrupt how the trains are made and distributed. You don't make money cutting people off. Williams dealers will of course use this as hype. "Get your Williams now before it's gone". Well it isn't going to be gone. Nor will it be rare.
Celebrating 18 years on the CTT Forum.
Buckeye Riveter......... OTTS Charter Member, a Roseyville Raider and a member of the CTT Forum since 2004..
Jelloway Creek, OH - ELV 1,100 - Home of the Baltimore, Ohio & Wabash RR
TCA 09-64284
What? How can everyone be so calm? This is a time for panic, panic I say!
Remember Y2K?!?
Oh. Right.
Never mind.
Bob Keller
Blueberryhill RR wrote: Ogaugeoverlord wrote:Come on guys, why don't we leave the endless nitpicking, name calling, and speculating about the doom of the hobby to other forums? Since the New Era of Williams hasn't begun yet, I don't see how any of the events of the last day or so reflect poorly upon it.I agree with you, Bob. No one probably knows the exact answer. Things seem to be " in process ' mode. I don't see any drastic ending.Chuck
Ogaugeoverlord wrote:Come on guys, why don't we leave the endless nitpicking, name calling, and speculating about the doom of the hobby to other forums? Since the New Era of Williams hasn't begun yet, I don't see how any of the events of the last day or so reflect poorly upon it.
I agree with you, Bob. No one probably knows the exact answer. Things seem to be " in process ' mode. I don't see any drastic ending.
Chuck
I too agree with Bob. Here's something to do: I say we just wait until some SOLID information is released. That way we'll know whats going on. Besides I'm sure Bob will fill us in on whats happening (at least I think thats what I read).
Chuck !! I like the way we always get a couple experts over here when there's a chance to get a big uproar going. Then you never see them any other time.
Brian,
Just thought that I would point out that Proto 2000 is made by Life Like, not Bachman
All Lionel all the time.
Okiechoochoo
add to that, Bachmann's "toy train" fun mentality. e.g., check out this circus starter set for $345 incl sound smoke track, brick etc
http://www.bachmanntrains.com/home-usa/catalog/?function=detail&id=1353
Before anyone gets too upset, here's some thoughts:
A few years ago, my neighbor got interested in trains. He thought the Lionel stuff was a bit pricey (for a young family budget), so he bought a Bachmann starter set. I must say, I was very impressed with the quality of that HO set. The engine ran smoothly and the new power pack included in that set was a charmer and nothing like the typical "Tyco" box-style power pack that came with so many HO sets. Remember too, it was under Dick Maddox when Bachmann introduced E-Z Track - which revolutionized the HO hobby because NOW you could run your HO set under the CHRISTmas tree as you never could before with normal HO track.
Bachmann has a wide product line, and their Spectrum and Proto2000 lines showed me years ago, that they are a serious player in the HO side of the hobby, and that they can be both innovative and make quality.
I've been using Bachmann smoke units for years and have nothing to say but they're great for the price. I've NEVER had a Seuthe smoke unit last for years and years the way I have with the Bachmann ones. I've also had outstanding customer service from Bachmann and they get high marks in my book.
Also remember, Jerry Williams has been in the business for years. Maybe, he's thinking about retirement? At any rate, if this should happen to be true, I actually believe it could be a positive thing for the hobby. Bachmann has a far bigger retail network and more presense in the hobby than does Williams. And all the trains are still made at Sanda Kan in China, so Bachmann too, has a working relationship with SK.
Time will tell. Williams has a good thing going and KNOWS there is a market for tradtionally sized NON-COMMAND basic quality locos. I know you don't get that impression from reading the magazines and forums, but even Lionel makes a couple thousand of a high end product, and makes 10's of thousands of the starter sets. The REAL train market is low end to mid-range affordable quality stater end products. Otherwise they would have made 10,000+ Acela sets, and 2,000 Polar Express sets.
RMT began production on the premise and continues to slowly grow. And with the purchase of the Industrial Rail tooling - and the introduction of new products - Atlas (a company noted for it's accurate scale detailed trains) realizes this market for 3-rail basic traditional trains. And even with their scale line, they've introduced the compromised details/budget-priced Trainman line.
Should this turn out as true, I wouldn't write off the Williams trains being made by Bachmann. It has the potential for some good things.
Unless it's a massive practical joke, it's for real:
"This time the source is Williams themselves. As others have posted, dealers have been getting letters. I received the letter yesterday. Williams sold to Bachmann. Get your engines soon, Everything sold to Bachmann. Can't be more clear.
I have mixed feelings about this. The Williams trains I own are all wonderful, and I had hoped to buy my son, John, a green 2332 GG-1 for Christmas. That may or may not be possible now. Williams has shown me great products and more importantly, great customer service with courteous and fast repair work. I attribute that to the small size of the company, and Jerry and Larry's approach to keeping customers satisfied. So in that respect, Williams trains lived up to their slogan of being the finest electric trains in the world as far as I am concerned.
Bachmann is known for reasonably priced items, and I hope they continue to keep the status quo at Williams. My fear is that prices will go up drastically, quality will decline, or customer service will not be as good as it has been. But if none of those two scenarios happen, I think it's a good thing for the hobby. And who knows, some new blood may bring some new ideas. My only nit to pick with Williams, and it's a small one, is the sounds. Maybe Bachmann will add more or better sounds to the product line.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
It's being reported (apparently) by letters to Williams' dealers that the company is being sold to Bachman. If you notice, in the Williams ad on the back cover of the new (Nov.) CTT, Williams has REMOVED all reference to buying trains directly from them. Previously, they sold much of their product direct from the factory. It just tells customers to "see your Williams Dealer" to buy their new engine offerings. A very telling sign!
Bob Keller: "what does CTT know, and when did you know it??" Please keep us posted. Thanks!
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