O Gauge vs O Scale?

[jackfrew]

Since becoming a grandfather 4 years ago I have dug out my old Lionel Santa Fe freight set, subscribed to CTT Magazine, joined the K-Line club and started attending train shows. Things have really changed since I was a kid in the 1950s and the learning curve has been steep. In order to be ready - they recommend age 8 for starters - I'm trying to learn as much as possible in order to bring my grandsons into the hobby.
My question was answered in a copy of CTT about a year or so ago but I can't find it. I believe "O Gauge" was also referred to as "Traditional Size" and "O Scale" was referred to as "Scale Size" -- my question is what is the scale? I seems to me that "O Gauge" was 1:48 and "O Scale" was 1:50, but I'd like confirmation/correction.
I also was confused by some terminology on page 63 of the December 2003 CTT - any help would be appreciated:
1. "Non-staked couplers"
2. "Staked couplers"
3. "Staple end trucks (actually sideframes)"
This is my first time on trains.com forum, so I apologize for any protocol errors in advance.
Thanks, Jack Frew

[Big_Boy_4005]

O scale is 1:48.

Guage usually refers to the distance between the rails.

People commonly use the term "O guage" to refer to any trains that use 3 rail track, and "O scale" for trains that run on 2 rail track. Another major difference between 2 rail and 3 rail trains is 3 rail trains run on AC power while 2 rail trains use DC. The distance between the rails is nearly the same for both types of train, but the style of the rails and the wheels, make the two types rather incompatable.

Originally Lionel did not make their trains to scale proportions, they were always undersized, with a few exceptions. Some pieces are known as 027, are proportioned even smaller than regular O guage. 027 is actually a track style, featuring lower ties and rails, and sharper minimum curves, but the usage of this term has been extended to the smallest of trains to run on O guage (distance between the rails) track.

In the last 20 years a lot of new train manufacturers have come along, to compete with Lionel. The trend has been toward more realistic, and correctly proportioned trains. Lionel has branched out in a number of directions in an effort ot capture market share.

Traditional, is the most basic offering, and is not very different from the trains of the 50's and 60's in design and purpose. These trains are intended for children as young as 4 or 5 years, with minimal adult supervision. K-line, and MTH also make trains and sets of this type. These trains are affordably priced.

Some trains are specifically intended for collectors. Higher quality, and much higher priced they are made with nostalgia in mind.

Finally, scale 3 rail trains are available. Compared to their "O guage" cousins, they seem huge, but they are only correctly proportioned models of real trains.

As for the term "staking", it refers to a method of connecting metal parts, by crushing a protruding tab of a casting into a hole in a piece of sheet metal, thus fastning the two pieces. The term "staple" is used to identify another fastening method, commonly used to attach truck sideframes, and got this name because the resulting connection looks like a staple.

[lionelsoni]

There are actually three O scales and two O gauges in use:

In the US, 1:48 is used. Tinplaters use this scale with 1.25-inch gauge, which is of course incorrect, being 3.5 scale inches too wide. The "General" trains are the only ones with the correct gauge, since the prototype Western and Atlantic used 5-foot gauge; but the models, uncharacteristically for Lionel, are larger than scale. Scale modelers narrow the gauge closer to the correct size. Q gauge is 1 3/16, while Proto 48 is even closer. Some postwar Lionel is correctly scaled, like the big Hudsons, the Trainmasters, and the F3's.

The American O gauge of 1.25 inches is considered to be 32 millimeters in other countries, which matches the 1:45 scale, used, for example, by ETS in the Czech Republic. The British use an odd convention of expressing scales in millimeters per foot. O scale is 7 mm/ft, which corresponds to 1:43.5 scale and 33 mm gauge. This is the O which HO, at 1:87 and 16.5 mm, is half of.

While most 3-rail trains do now use AC, Lionel started with DC and sold DC reducers for some time. Lionel trains will still run on DC, and very smoothly and quietly too. (You have to disable the whistle-horn relay.) On the other hand, American Flyer trains generally use AC with 2-rail track.

Lionel sold many pieces as both O (now often termed "O31") and O27. The only difference was the model number.

[Anonymous]

I've always considered O scale as 2 rail and O gauge as 3 rail. That's the difference. People in O scale also like to refer to themselves as hi-railers. Some folks refer to them as rivet counters.[:D]

[IRONROOSTER]

To further confuse the issue, some manufacturers have/do use scales other than 1:48. Industrial Rail uses 1:55. Some of the large articulateds have been done in 1:55, others in 1:64.
Enjoy
Paul

[spankybird]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mystic Storm

I've always considered O scale as 2 rail and O gauge as 3 rail. That's the difference. People in O scale also like to refer to themselves as hi-railers. Some folks refer to them as rivet counters.[:D]

There are plenty of 3 rail O scale cars and engines out there today, just look at the latest Lionel, MTH or K-Line catalog. MTH even makes O Scale engines that can run on either 2 rail or 3 rail, AC or DC. [:D][8D]

[3railguy]

To confuse maters more there is a gauge called proto 48. It is close to 1 3/16" between the rails which works out to a scale 56 1/2" in O scale between the rails like the prototype. Proto 48 is for the hardcore rivet counter and rarley used.

[lionelsoni]

If proto48 is rarley used, it is only because O-scale modelers are not very common; but it is the normal American O-scale gauge and the exact-gauge successor to Q, which used 1 3/16 inch.

Can we avoid using pejorative terms like "rivet counter" here?

[thor CNJ]

Take into account that dimensions are fudged, so thata car can embody aspects fo several scales. Early zPostwar L:ionel O27 can bodies often had the legnth and height of 1/64 scale, but they were widened so they would look better on O track. Judging by the width was 1/60. By length or door height was 1/64. Marx's "scale" for O27 was a car made to 1/64 scale with wider O trucks.

This idea of 1/64, a.k.a 3/16" scale on O originated in 1938 when A.C. Gilbert took over American Flyer. Gilbert wanted a truly scale train to run on O track, without having to resort to 72" curves. He found that a 1/64 car could handle the curves without flipping. Of course, he later abandoned O to make a 1/64 gauge track, thus his S gauge.

Every look at Marx buildings? The doors are too small for most O figures. Marx made most buildings to 1/64, even though Marx's miniature people for railroads were 1/48 size.

So let's see, we have normal 1/48, 1/45. 1/43.5, 1/50, 1/55, 1/60 and 1/64. And that "Proto 48." We have the makings of a real ball of confusion here! One O gauge, eight O scales! Woohooo!

[3railguy]

QUOTE: If proto48 is rarley used, it is only because O-scale modelers are not very common; but it is the normal American O-scale gauge and the exact-gauge successor to Q, which used 1 3/16 inch.

Can we avoid using pejorative terms like "rivet counter" here?

The common gauge that 2 rail O scalers use is 1 1/4" between the rails. O gauge. Whether it be two or three rails, if it's 1 1/4" between outer rails, it's O gauge. Proto 48 is a set of standards (1 3/16" gauge) apart from NMRA O scale standards (flange depth, wheel width, slop, etc.) Central Locomotive works engines can be ordered what they call proto 48 gauge and Northwest Shortline sells wheelsets in what they call proto 48 gauge. You can call it Q gauge too if you like.

"Rivet Counter" is no different than "Tinplater". Nothing personal. "Weenie" is the nickname that is personal.