I acquired a post war Lionel 456 Coal ramp and have noticed two problems/issues. The first is with the coupler at the top of the ramp. The coupler from the 3456 N&W hopper must hit it with more force than it seems it should to get it to close causing derailments every time. The second is when the hopper is released the two spring loaded pistons on the sides do not push it hard enough to get it rolling down the ramp. I know it is recommended to shim the back end of the ramp base to create a downward incline but I had it up on the handle of a #2 philips screwdriver before it was enough. Any ideas or known solutions?
Mike
ezmike,
In my experience your ramp is definitely not operating as designed. First run your fingers over all moving parts and check for rust, pits, or a sticky varnish-like substance that often results from the evaporation of ancient oil or other lubricant, which should never have been used but which sometimes just seems to appear out of nowhere. Does the coupler pop open smoothly when you push the button? If not, its spring may be missing or fatigued.
Try taking some dry lubricant such as graphite powder* and working it in to the coupler from all angles and orifices until it works ultra smoothly. If necessary file away any burrs that you may find. Use the same product on the push-pistons until they work smoothly too. Sometimes they get a coat of mild rust and/or grunge that really makes them sticky.
Consider replacing the springs. Someone may have stored the ramp with the car in place and/or the coupler closed, and the springs may have weakened. Does it uncouple when the button is pushed with no car attached? Are the piston shafts straight and not bent?
Also check the operation of the wheels on the hopper car and oil them if they are less than silky-smooth. Also make certain the wheels are "in gauge" and are not binding or otherwise hanging up on the ramp rails. Does the empty car roll smoothly down the ramp when nudged gently?
Check the area on which the ramp sits for level. You should not have to shim it at all --certainly not more than 1/8 inch.
* Teflon powder might work also, but I prefer graphite if for no other reason than it is black and you are working on a "coal" product. Do not inhale either product. Rather than trying to apply either of these products directly from their tubes (which can result in overapplication of a most annoying nature) I carefully squirt some out into a small cup and apply it with a popsicle stick, small spoon or a "funnel" made of paper folded into a "V" shape.
Plese let us know whether and how you solve it.
Edit, addendum, noonish ,Saturday: This question was also posted on the othe major three-rail forum where several guys have taken stabs at it. C W Burfle and Denny Lyons have observed that the coupler on the coal ramp is a special version which was specifically designed for ease and smoothness of operation. I was unaware of this. There is speculation that someone replaced the original with an incorrect version. If so, it could explain a lot.
Thanks guys, as soon as I get a chance I'll tackle this one again and let you know what I find.
Mike (ezmike),
Normally I would refer you to the "Library" section of Olsen's toy train parts online, but in this case my computer cannot open the diagrams that pertain to the 456 coal ramp.
I had to locate my copy of the Complete Service Manual for Lionel Trains by K-Line, 1982 edition to find the necessary pages. Presumably one of the publications known as "Greenberg's" Lionel service manual has similar pages. Hope this helps.
Note: in order to clean the shafts of the two bumper-posts and/or to replace the springs it isn't necessary to cut anything. Frequently the springs can be unwound from around the posts and replaced by reversing the process. This is true for many other "entrapped" springs, such as those that keep the front and rear trucks of steam locos pressed down onto the track. I have found this to be extremely useful, and it isn't necessary obvious.
bf
Thanks for the hint, I've done that with other springs where it would either be too difficult to dismantle the pieces or I would not be able to reassemble properly. The cleaning of the coupler and re-lubing with graphite and then replacing the piston springs were the first things I was going to do. The coupler issue is the bigger problem. I can work around the releasing piston issue but if the coupler doesn't work properly you're really between a rock and a hard place. I've looked at the parts lists of a few of the online places like The Train Tender, Dr. Tinker and OTTS and I don't see anything listed for that coupler.
Wish me luck!
Mike,
I very much wish you luck. First, as to finding parts, one trick I learned on this forum is to do a "bull rush" and simply search for the part number in Google. For openers in this case, keying in "Lionel 6TC-10" (without the quotation marks) produces several "hits" including Brasseur's in Saginaw, Michigan.
I have also learned that the online parts lists are often somewhat incomplete. Sometimes the parts dealers have stock that hasn't made it to the lists. Folks like David Laughridge (Dr. Tinker), Jeff at the Train Tender, Chuck Sartor at Mizell's in Colorado, the good folks at Olsens and others will often work with you if you make a phone call and speak with them personally.
That said, I think you really need an exploded view parts diagram such as appears in the above-mentioned Service Manuals from Greenberg and K-Line. (I am talking about K-Line's guide to LIONEL parts, mind you. Best money I ever spent on toy trains.) Once you can see all the little parts and how they go together, you can often notice that something is missing, bent, nicked or whatever, as well as how to gain access to them.
With coupler problems generally, as a last resort, I have had success with the judicious use of a rat-tail file to smooth the curved areas withing the coupler knuckles themselves.* Remember, there is only one car that should be mated with the 456, so you shouldn't have to tackle your entire fleet. But I wouldn't file or sand anything except as a last resort, although I would check every surface that rubs against any other for smoothness and cleanliness, and only lubricate as a next-to-last resort and then only with graphite, if it were mine. I don't think Lionel used any lubricant at the factory. Properly alligned, things should work "dry," although over time something seems to happen to the factory finish on items like couplers such that what were once quite smooth surfaces become a bit rough and/or sticky.
It is very difficult to diagnose a problem from a distance, but I think some of your problem may be due to misalignment as much as anything else. First make sure everything works correctly by itself; i.e., with nothing actually coupled together. Use different operating voltages but you shouldn't exceed about 14 volts max, and do not put power to the electro-magnets for more than a second or so. They are not designed for anything other than momentary operation. Then, if both car and ramp work separately, "sneak up" on the problem by hooking them together. I have found that a small flat mirror can be of considerable assistance.
The 456 is a great accessory. When combined with the 397 rubber-belt coal loader and the associated "bin on stilts" you can move coal round and round the layout almost entirely hands-off. When my kids were little this combination was our favorite. In my opinion it's worth the effort.
* In my experience, the rat-tail file approach has only been necessary with couplers of different manufacturers and should not be needed when you have a Lionel car and a Lionel accessory from the same era. It is easy to do more harm than good.
bf,
Thanks for the additional information. My next step in locating parts was to call and speak with them. I've had several conversations with Jeff over my short time in the hobby and he has been great. I've spoken to a couple others and they've been equally helpful. If as a last resort I need to change the coupler I will reach out to them. I did notice when I first got the ramp and set it up for a trial that the coupler was on a slight upward incline so I tweaked it down a little. Worked a little better after that. Sounds like a good idea to spend some time with it when I'm not in a hurry and look at it from all angles. I have Greenburgs Manual but the diagram from Olsen's might be clearer and bigger. I need to look into getting the K-Line book.
I'll keep you posted and share thoughts and findings as they come along. I agree that this is a great accessory. My kids bought me a new re-issue 397 for Father's Day (can't return it for a Post War model unless I want to die) and when they saw me looking at the 456 they picked one up for my birthday. I already had the 497, so moving coal will be big on the layout.
Thanks again
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