I hope this topic has not been beat to death, but I am planning toadd some freight cars to my layout. It is presently mostly post-warLionel, but I have a few Williams and K-Line cars which are Scale, andlook out of place. It seems impossible to tell what the catalogs meanby "Traditional Line", "Classic" "40' Scale freight cars". All theseterms are used by Williams to describe their freight cars. They givethe lengths as 10", 11" or 11.25" in different catalogs, for thesame freight cars. I measured the box car I ordered from Williams andit is 10". Exactly right for 1:48. The original Lionel measures 8"which would be 1:60.
I bought a few used Lionel cars on Ebay, and am satisfied with them. They fit right in.
Are there any reputable manufacturers who sell the traditional Lionel size cars?
Itwould be great if we had a list here showing which currently offeredtrains actually conform to the old Lionel (non) standard. For example,I bought a S2-100 Pennsy steam turbine from Williams, and it looks likeit is the right size.
The reason that your Turbine fits in is that it is a "reproduction" of a post war engine. The Williams boxcars are made from old AMT molds which were scaled sized. The other cars from Williams are based off of Lionel postwar prototypes. Lionel made three sizes of boxcars during the postwar period. The earliest were smaller and closer to S guage. The 6014/scout which were slightly smaller and 6464 which were closer to scale. They also made scale sized stock cars, mail cars and refridgerated cars in the late 50s.
In the lionel catologe Traditional is used to refer to non scale. The K-line boxcars are a good stand in for 6464 type boxcars and a good value. Industrial rail is also an excellent value and is the right size. Also, you can find MPC era Lionel on ebay pretty cheap and are made from postwar molds. There is less rivit detail but some nice road names. I like to add postwar trucks to these as I like the look better, but the MPC trucks roll better.
Now, after reading your post again I believe that you have the early postwar. These aren't as readily avalible new. The K-line bowcars from marx molds might work but I do not know if they make these.
If you have more than one train running you can run one with the smaller cars and one with the larger cars. Will try to come up with more options.
You want to look for O27, semi scale, or traditional sized rolling stock. If it says scale, stay away from it. It will be too big and too expensive.
Jim
Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale
Bob.M,
Consider the Industrial Rail line, now being offered by Atlas O.
Industrial Rail rolling stock is very nice. Who has the lowest prices on that line?
Thanks for replying. I will be looking into what Atlas has to offer.
Trainsandmusic wrote:
"The 6014/scout which were slightly smaller and 6464 which were closer to scale."
Did you really mean to say that the 6464 was closer to scale? My Lionel boxcar says 65400 on the left and X6464 on the right, and measures 8".
When I figure out how to post pictures here, I will include a shot of it and the Williams car. Right now, I am having trouble doing simple editing. I have to switch over to Internet Explorer to do cut & paste. I had tried revising the original (My First Post) from the preview, and then editing from the forum, and none of the edits "took". No big deal, though.
Guess I will take another look at K-Line since they were bought out by Lionel. My 2004 K-Line catalog seems to only have Scale freight cars.
This is the original Lionel 8" (excluding couplers) X6454 boxcar:
Here is the Williams 40' Scale car next to the Lionel for size comparison.
Jim, (jaabat)
You asked: Industrial Rail rolling stock is very nice. Who has the lowest prices on that line?
I don't know but I'd bet JusTrains of Delaware would be hard to beat.
http://www.justrains.com/atlasIndRail.htm
This post edited 8/7 @ 10:31 pm Eastern to the point of extinction: I thought you were trying to establish what toy train cars went well with other toy train cars; and specifically where Industrial Rail cars fit in. Evidently I misunderstood the issue. By the way, I, too, make a point of staying away from Harrisburg, the better not to get arrested. If this observation doesn't make sense, what else is new?
"I have tried to answer this question previously, and it is not as easy as it may sound. If one simply tries to measure length, width and height, he runs into problems of where and what to measure. For box or reefer cars, should one include the doors? Ladders? Catwalk? Trucks? Couplers? Trim?"
For the 40' series of boxcars, it is an easy measurement. If you look carefully at the lettering on the car, it says it is an internal measurement. That is what they sell to freight customers. i.e. How much can I stuff in it? By measuring the outside of the car, excluding couplers and the rooftop extensions of a 1:48 Scale you get 10".
In other cases it is not so simple. My Williams NW2 Switcher says it is a "Big 1/4" scale...Locomotive". It measures 10 1/2" excluding couplers. But what to compare it with? I checked the specs for a couple of real life NW2 switchers, and they range from 44' 5" to 44' 8". Trouble is they do not say whether the couplers are included. (They probably are). That checks out as 1:48 scale. Even so, it looks OK next to my old postwar cars. I used to have a old Lionel NW2, and I think it was the same size as the new Williams NW2. Wish I could verify that. If you include the couplers it becomes a real problem, as even on a "Scale" model, the couplers aren't. I am tempted to take a tape measure to the next real NW2 I see, but I might get arrested.
As an aside, we came close to getting arrested when we went to Harrisburg to see the old GG1 they have at the train station. People are really paranoid since 911.
Bob.M wrote: Thanks for replying. I will be looking into what Atlas has to offer. Trainsandmusic wrote: "The 6014/scout which were slightly smaller and 6464 which were closer to scale."Did you really mean to say that the 6464 was closer to scale? My Lionel boxcar says 65400 on the left and X6464 on the right, and measures 8".
I mean the 6464 series were larger then the 6014 series and a step towards more to scale size from Lionel.
The 6464 cars are longer than the 6014 cars, but are still not scale sized and will look great behind any O27 non scale locomotive.
Bob.M, your car is circa 1947. A 6464 woulld be bigger but not quite as big as a williams boxcar. Most new traditional is 6464 sized. If you are stuck on your current boxcar size I would go with vintage.
trainsandmusic wrote: Bob.M, your car is circa 1947. A 6464 woulld be bigger but not quite as big as a williams boxcar. Most new traditional is 6464 sized. If you are stuck on your current boxcar size I would go with vintage.
When you say "go with vintage" do you mean buy used stock from Ebay?
As someone pointed out, in an acual RR there is quite a variation in size, so a little mismatching is OK.
I guess the catalogs which specify the length include the couplers. I see a 2454 Boxcar in the 1948 Lionel catalog which is 9 1/4". The car looks the same as the 6454 I own which measures the same. In the 1954 catalog, the 6464 is 10 1/2" long. The Williams "Scale" car measures 11 1/4" with couplers.
I do not see any lengths in the on line Atlas Catalog.
I have the Pennsylvania "Automobiles" PW boxcar courtesy of dear old dad. It's a neat car. Big for its time. You can get plenty of similarly scaled cars to go with that size. MPC cars from the 70s and early 80s will work. These cost practically nothing, so avoid the $20 thief at the train show or on Ebay. Also, don't forget the RMT hoppers.
That said, as much as I like that boxcar, it looks ridiculously small next to my Atlas O 1937 Automobile boxcar. The Pennsylvania automated merchandise car is even tinier.
Funny, when I was a kid they looked normal size. Getting scale stuff changes your perspective, to be sure.
RaleighTrainFan wrote: I have the Pennsylvania "Automobiles" PW boxcar courtesy of dear old dad. It's a neat car. Big for its time. You can get plenty of similarly scaled cars to go with that size. MPC cars from the 70s and early 80s will work. These cost practically nothing, so avoid the $20 thief at the train show or on Ebay. Also, don't forget the RMT hoppers.(snip)
I have the Pennsylvania "Automobiles" PW boxcar courtesy of dear old dad. It's a neat car. Big for its time. You can get plenty of similarly scaled cars to go with that size. MPC cars from the 70s and early 80s will work. These cost practically nothing, so avoid the $20 thief at the train show or on Ebay. Also, don't forget the RMT hoppers.(snip)
My 1948 catalog says the 2458 Automobile Car is 9 3/4" long. Is that the one you have? That would fit in well with any postwar setup. My older stuff was given to me back in the day. I wonder how much of my father's paycheck went into the 2332 GG1? It is listed at $37.50. What would that be in todays' dollars? (Rhetorical question - don't really need a number).
So far I have been advised to look at K-Line's Traditional O and Atlas Industrial Rail. Lionel is kind enough to include the size of these in its catalog. Size of the Atlas stock is still a mystery.
What do you mean by "..avoid the $20 thief at the train show or on Ebay."? Where would I buy these items?
What is RMT?
Bob.M wrote: RaleighTrainFan wrote: I have the Pennsylvania "Automobiles" PW boxcar courtesy of dear old dad. It's a neat car. Big for its time. You can get plenty of similarly scaled cars to go with that size. MPC cars from the 70s and early 80s will work. These cost practically nothing, so avoid the $20 thief at the train show or on Ebay. Also, don't forget the RMT hoppers.(snip)My 1948 catalog says the 2458 Automobile Car is 9 3/4" long. Is that the one you have? That would fit in well with any postwar setup. My older stuff was given to me back in the day. I wonder how much of my father's paycheck went into the 2332 GG1? It is listed at $37.50. What would that be in todays' dollars? (Rhetorical question - don't really need a number).So far I have been advised to look at K-Line's Traditional O and Atlas Industrial Rail. Lionel is kind enough to include the size of these in its catalog. Size of the Atlas stock is still a mystery.What do you mean by "..avoid the $20 thief at the train show or on Ebay."? Where would I buy these items? What is RMT?
Yes, that's it.
RMT is Ready Made Toys. They are issuing some 0-27 hopper cars in various roadnames, $50 for the pair. Can probably find them even cheaper. They are Kusan tooling IIRC.
Re $20, I merely meant "don't overpay for MPC stuff." At train shows you will see people trying to sell 70s MPC stuff for $20 or more per car (I have seen this). You should be able to find them in quantity for $10 or even $5 per car. They have little or no resemblance to any prototype, have little detail, and weight about an ounce a piece. However, I have mine from my first set and would not trade them for anything.
RaleighTrainFan wrote: RMT is Ready Made Toys. They are issuing some 0-27 hopper cars in various roadnames, $50 for the pair. Can probably find them even cheaper. They are Kusan tooling IIRC.
Thanks for the info. I can add RMT to the list of suppliers of compatible rolling stock. They even say how long the cars are The hopper cars are 9 1/2" long which is not too big. In fact it is the same as my Lionel 3454.
An off topic question: How do you get your location (Raleigh, NC) to show up to the left of the message?
Bob.M wrote: Size of the Atlas stock is still a mystery.
Size of the Atlas stock is still a mystery.
Atlas stock outside of the Industrial Rail line is 1:48 scale, which is noticeably larger than typical postwar rolling stock.
If the size of something isn't listed, look at the wording. "Scale" implies it's 1:48, which will be too big. "Traditional" will be fine (manufacturers are afraid to say "off-scale"). I'm not sure if "Semi-scale" means the same as traditional, or if it means 1:48 scale with oversize flanges. I'm sure someone else can jump in and define that.
Heeding the advice of people on this forum, I bought an Atlas Industrial Rail Hopper. It is almost an exact match to the old Lionel 3456 postwar Hopper. The body of each measures 8 1/2". The detail is excellent. Oddly, the overall length differs when you include the couplers, as most sources do. The Atlas is 10" versus the Lionel at 9 5/8".
By comparison, what follows is an example of what I have been trying to avoid. The K-Line caboose on the left looks closer to the old Lionel Standard Gauge, than the Lionel O-Gauge.
I found a Vendor who lists the sizes of Atlas Industrial Rail cars.
www.towerhobbies.com.
I wonder how they get their information, as it is not available on the Atlas site. Could it be they do it the old fashioned way, using a ruler?
Bob.M wrote: I found a Vendor who lists the sizes of Atlas Industrial Rail cars.www.towerhobbies.com.
I just received 3 cars from them. Very prompt service.
In the interest of full disclosure, the length they provide does not include the couplers. I personally think that is the right way, but I suspect most sources include the couplers in the length.
What I do is if I'm running a close to scale engine with cars that look to small I'll put maybe a flat car with a load or maybe gondolas right behind the engine, then place the not so scale cars behind them. Gives it a little illusion effect. I have alot of post war hoppers that look out of place behind a scale engine so I do this and it doesn't look as bad.
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