? on transformers / "power supply 101"

[trainmasterz]

I need to start looking into what power supply s are the best for building a layout.

Im looking for advise on what to do.

Just glancing at Reggie's layout, so far I've counted 6 power supplies, 2 zw s, 1 large mth looking transformer, 1 cw80, 1 TMCC Base.

 Do I save up and buy the ZW with 2 power supplies and then add 2 more power supplies?

Can you add the TMCC later?  Im assuming yes.

What power do you go for?  Is it best to go for 190 watt? 

What is the maximum size loop that can be powered with a 80watt, 135watt, 190watt?

That will probably answer my question.

[phillyreading]

I would say to save up and buy a post war ZW with circuit breakers from Scotts Odds and Ends, www.scottsodds-n-ends.com    You can buy a four gang circuit breaker for close to $30.00 that will work with the ZW.

90 to 100 watts is more than plenty for most layouts, all you need to do is add power clips every four sections of track or where you notice a power loss with an engine.  Also need to figuire in how many switches you are going to use to see if you will have enough accessory power.

I do not favor the new ZW's as I keep hearing about problems with them.

You can buy a Z1000 from MTH for about $90.00.

Lee F.

[PostwarMan07]

I agree that you should go with a postwar ZW.  What kind of problems have been reported with the new ZWs?

[lionel2986]

I would say to save up and buy a post war ZW with circuit breakers from Scotts Odds and Ends, www.scottsodds-n-ends.com    You can buy a four gang circuit breaker for close to $30.00 that will work with the ZW.

90 to 100 watts is more than plenty for most layouts, all you need to do is add power clips every four sections of track or where you notice a power loss with an engine.  Also need to figuire in how many switches you are going to use to see if you will have enough accessory power.

I do not favor the new ZW's as I keep hearing about problems with them.

You can buy a Z1000 from MTH for about $90.00.

Lee F.

 

What kind of problems and how could you avoid them? I have a NIB ZW. If It's not very good I'll return it and get a PW.

[A&Y Ry]

Drew 

The size of the layout has minimal effect on the railpower demand on the transformer. Voltage drop thru the rails on large layouts can be eliminated by using adequate wire size and multiple connections geographically connected around the oval, loop, etc, from a transformer---any transformer. The railpower load is related to the number of engines and motors[including their type and age] operated and, in particular, the number and wattage of light bulbs in passenger cars, cabooses, engines, tenders,etc. Lights, in particular incandescent bulbs, add up fast.[I am ignoring lighted, powered Accessories as a part of the load here].

You are correctly focused on 180-90 watts per power district which is the maximum transformer output per single throttle on any brand unless you utilize a 400 watt Track Power Controller[TPC] which enables paralleling a pair of 180 watt Power House transformers["bricks"] for 360 watts capacity. If you can locate a pair of 135 watt Power Houses, a 300 watt capacity TPC can be used to parallel and achieve 270 watts capacity.

You can get 180 watts total output to all throttles combined or any single throttle,from a 55 year old postwar ZW[rated at 275 watts but that is input], output is 180-90 watts. If this is considered you should be careful to buy a refurbished unit---new cord,rollers,binding posts and replacement of horn/whistle rectifiers with diodes. It is also advisable to use inline fuses on the hot center rail output or connect a circuit breaker box as suggested elsewhere. Postwar ZW breakers are generally unreliable.

A MTH ZK 400 has two 180 watt metered throttle outputs and has proven to be a very reliable and popular unit. A few problems developed with early units---wimpy throttle and failing blower motors. This happened with a couple of my Z-4ks but I'm not sure how widespread it occurred.

The Lionel Celebration Series ZW is really a Controller rather than a transformer and as you have noted utilizes the Power House tranformers--up to four 180 watt units[bricks] or 760 total watts or, 180 watts routed to each of four separate throttles/power districts. However the new ZW does not have the capability to parallel its bricks for multiples of 180 watts for a single power district/throttle.

I still have a Z4k and pw ZW's as backup and on test track, but use PowerHouses linked to TPCs on my TMCC controlled layout[Cab 1 and Command Base]. I still operate MTH proto 1.0 engines in Conventional mode and the TPC enables me to access certain features from the Cab 1.  But mostly I run in TMCC.

 

[dbaker48]

Dewey - Very good and informative post,  Hope your wife does fine.

BTW - I havn't had any problem with the NEW ZW that I have.  Matter of fact I have both old and new.  Adding the meters on them sure helped a lot!!! 

[phillyreading]

I agree that you should go with a postwar ZW.  What kind of problems have been reported with the new ZWs?

I think it was last week somebody posted on here about a new ZW shorting out inside the control shell, track one and track four shorted out to each other and sent his locomotive out of control.

Also have heard that the handles fall off or out of the shell itself on the new ZW.

Lee F.

[A&Y Ry]

Don

Thanks for the well wish for wife Barbara.

She is optimistic, the Surgeon has elected to go with a single episode of pinpoint Gamma Radiation instead of cranial entry, a process whereupon he has to physically lift the brain to get at the tumor underneath.  Apparently toddling around with the brain causes side/after effects that may linger in an older person.The good news is that he still thinks the tumor is benign and insists that non-invasive "Gamma Knife" treatment is 98% effective.

[phillyreading]

Not all the new ZW's may be problem riddled but there are a few that do have problems, especially since Lionel moved production to China. 

A lot of stuff made in China has had defects in recent years.

Lee F.

[lionelsoni]

I agree with Dewey's advice about there being no relationship between layout size and transformer power, only between train power consumption and transformer power.

Circuit breakers are good things to have.  Whatever the weaknesses of postwar circuit breakers, a more important concern is that they do not protect against all overloads.  In particular, accidental connections among the output terminals that you would wire to the center rails have no effect on the circuit breaker, which is in the return path, connected to the outside rails.  So it is a good idea for safety to add the individual circuit breakers that Lionel left out.

On the other hand, depending on circuit breakers or fuses to protect electronics-intensive modern locomotives is chancy.  A short circuit draws current that bypasses the locomotive and is therefore no direct threat.  But when the short circuit is cleared, the inductive nature of the transformer may well produce a damaging voltage spike.  Short circuits are rarely single events; the short circuit almost always closes and opens many times, creating many opportunities for spikes.  The best protection for this is a transient voltage suppressor (TVS).

Both of these ways of adding protection have been discussed here many times before.  You should be able to find much more information by searching.

[mpzpw3]

I have had a new Zw for about a year and a half, and have no problems with it. Currently using 3 180 watt bricks, and it works very well. You can use the transformer manually like any other transformer, or with a Lionel command base and cab-1, use just the remote. Also with the new ZW and command set, you don't need to buy any TPC's. The feature to run both conventional and TMCC are built into the transformer. Figure the price of a postwar ZW, the command set, the TPC's, new circuit breakers, and possibly adding a "bell" button, and the new ZW becomes more of a deal than postwar.  You've also got a year warranty from Lionel if any of the above mentioned things go wrong.

Sometimes when you read these forum's it sounds like everthing goes wrong with these products. I have bought from almost all the major manufacturer's and haven't had a problem yet (yet being the key word!). Most people only report when they have a problem, not when an item works. Do a search on the forum for CW-80, and you will find page after page of problems with it. Now search the new ZW. The CW-80 is a known problem, whereas the ZW has much fewer problems. Obviously the CW-80 is more common, which could explain the number of problem posts, but aside from some early handle problems, and some sine-wave problems some people have encountered ( I run proto-1, proto-2, postwar Lionel, MPC Lionel, modern Lionel, Williams and K-line, and have never had a problem with any of them.), there doesn't seem to be many complaints. Some people don't like that there is no heft to it, and that the transformers are really the bricks, and all the "football" does is control the bricks, but that is not a malfunction, it is a preference.