CTT ARTICLES

[Anonymous]

If anyone from Ctt reads this, i would love to see some more articles on prewar trains of any type. Im a young collector, and have been reading Ctt for about 10 years. In this period ive noticed an intense decline in the already pathetic array of articles involving prewar. It seems that all the articles anymore involve only postwar or new trains. Save this for O gauge railroading. I love your magazine, but it is called Classic Toy Trains, so lets see some classic trains. How about an article on the evolution of the prewar lionel 800 series small freights. Thanks, Dave. Grove City, Pa.

[prewardude]

I'm with you on this one, prewarboy - I would love to see more prewar coverage in CTT. I wouldn't hold my breath, though; the Baby Boomers seem to be driving the toy train markets right now, and that means post-war trains are going to take precedence. As for me - I just can't appreciate trains made from plastic [V] By the way, I'm a (fairly) young collector myself at age 35, but I've been into prewar trains since I was in my late teens. I think it all stems from a prewar O gauge Lionel set that my Mom threw away when I was about four years old (oh, the horror of it all!). The thing didn't run, but it could have been restored, I'm sure. I can still remember what it was like holding that train in my hands. Oh well - so it goes...

[Anonymous]

Thats great prewardude, Im only 21 and started collecting prewar when i purchased a forgotten and battered 1689e at the Underground Railroad Shop in New Castle PA. I was 11, and ever since ive been hordeing them. Plastic trains have no appeal to me either. We'll win in the end. Some of my trains are already turning 100 yrs old. They are bonified antiques not "collectibles". My father always told me that when the baby boomers are gone and we are old men. The prewar trains made of metal will be prized and the postwar trains demoted back to layouts. One thing remains undeniably true. Prewar trains are in some respects industrial art, inspired by the great artisans and architects of their day, men like Raymond Loewy, and Otto Kuhler. Postwar trains are simply toys.

[Anonymous]

I'm also young (17) and a prewar collector. I also collect postwar too, however. I agree that CTT should do more articles on prewar trains. There were many more articles about prewar trains 10 years ago than there are now. Modern era trains are nice and everything, but there really should be an even mix of prewar, postwar and modern era to satisfy the tastes of all toy train enthusiasts. I certainly agree that prewar trains are in a way works of art and indeed something very, very special. It's hard not to be fascinated by holding a train that someone bought new 80 or more years ago.

[Anonymous]

You won't get an arguement from me, either, about the editorial change in CTT from CLASSIC trains to NEW trains. As an immediate prewar/immediate postwar collector/operator, I too am discouraged by the dearth of "classic train'" articles.
Having read the magazine almost since its inception, and having read what they've said in other publications, you can pretty much guess what the rest of this note says...
"Our surveys indicate the majority of our readers are interested in newer offerings from train manufacturers" (has anyone ever SEEN one of these surveys? Over 10 years of subscribing, and never has one passed thru my house)
"We welcome articles from our readers" (how about this instead ~ dig through old issues of Model Builder and Toy Train magazines. Kalmbach rehashes articles into book form; why not reprint articles from those magazines as "Heritage Articles" in CTT? 'Twould cost alot less than paying a new author. Besides, not all prewar collectors are writers. And then, after about 2 years, THOSE articles could be brought together in ANOTHER Kalmbach book!)
In fairness, though, what specifically do you seek in a prewar article? Repair info? I'd suggest you check with Ray Plummer's series'... and make a suggestion to CTT that he do more on prewar repair. History? Joe Algozzini does a great job of that; again, maybe we just need to prod CTT a bit more in the 'prewar' direction. Layouts? Unless it's something by Chuck Brasher or another collector, you won't see much of the 'run of the mill' prewar stuff.
Personally, I'd like to see more about restorations and 'tricks of the trade' when it comes to repair. Certainly we don't expect an article in EACH issue ( I don't see why not), but prewar and postwar collectors/operators are paying subscription rates the same as the 'newbies'. Aren't we entitles to see OUR interests recognized in a magazine whose first word is "Classic"?
Or, maybe we should contact Rich Melvin over at at the "O Gauge Journal".

[Bob Keller]

Thanks for the comments, guys! Have a great holiday.

Bob Keller
Classic Toy Trains

[Anonymous]

Thanks, Bob... you too!
Hope you found the comments useful.

[Anonymous]

[:)]

Great idea here. There was a cover story in 2001 issue regarding restoring old trains and that was the last I have seen on restoration. How about an article showing some of the best restoration jobs from readers? I would send in some pictures of my own set which I restored. I also would lik emore on the care and maintenance of these old beauties.

[brianel027]

I'm not a pre-war collector at all, but boy - I'm surprised and pleased to see the young ages of you guys who are into it! That's great!

The hobby has gone in all directions lately, not only with collecting but with operating too. One of the reasons I post here now instead of at the OGRR site is that I got tired of all the denouncements of 027. When you post over there, speaking for myself, I got the firm impression that the vast majority of folks there were financially well-to-do retired operators who want all new product to absolutely scale with total realism and everything - everything - to be command control. Even threads on Williams or the new RMT Beep moan that it's too bad they don't come with TMCC.
DESPITE the fact Lionel's own surveys found disappointing results in the numbers of command users. Seems for every thread on the wonders of electronic command, there's another two on the pitfalls of waiting for repairs or having the product fail straight out of the box. Even the train magazines have reviewed product that was defective. And I get a laugh out of how folks want more and more detail and yet complain some of extra the details are fragile. Even the train mags point that out in the reviews.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are lots of different areas of appreciation in this hobby. Obviously the postwar Lionel period is the most popular, as it was also the most successful. But dollars can speak louder than words. From eveything I read and from people I talk with and know, command control IS NOT the most popular way of running trains. AND there are FAR MORE 027 operators out there than Lionel or K-Line want to acknowledge. BUT it is the few folks with money to burn that must buy every new scale detailed engine that are driving the hobby. This along with ego... the companies are in a dead heat with eachother. You don't forge ahead into the future by putting out product that isn't totally new and improved. Since Lionel developed TMCC, I doubt they are going to back away from it. I doubt MTH will back off from DCS either.

Besides, the 027 type operators tend to be budget operators who are not visiting the hobby shop every week. Their train buying tends to be more conservative. Heck, as soon as the holiday issues of the train mags cam out, there was a thread questioning why the train mags "waste" editorial space on starter set reviews and holiday layouts when that space could be devoted to more scale-sized layouts and product. Talk about selfish and narrow minded!

I understand where you prewar guys are coming from. In the last few years I see scant little for me in any of the new Lionel, MTH or K-Line catalogs. Again, it's all about dollars. The same is true for CTT. I don't mean that to sound harsh. I think the gang at CTT does a pretty good job. I enoy reading all the articles, even on trains I don't operate or collect. Maybe you pre-war guys need to take some photos and pass them along to CTT. Or write a story or even a letter to the editor on how you got interested in prewar. I think that alone is pretty interesting - to see you young guys into this! That's a story in itself, especially when you consider the low numbers of young people in the hobby now. You guys should all contact CTT with more info on your collections or layouts. If you guys aren't writers, maybe you could make it easier for someone who is.

I wouldn't expect to see CTT to start running a bounty of stories on prewar stuff. But a story once in a while would be of interest even to a non-prewar guy like me. It is interesting to know where the hobby came from as much as where it is now.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brianel027


I understand where you prewar guys are coming from. In the last few years I see scant little for me in any of the new Lionel, MTH or K-Line catalogs. Again, it's all about dollars. The same is true for CTT. I don't mean that to sound harsh. I think the gang at CTT does a pretty good job. I enoy reading all the articles, even on trains I don't operate or collect. Maybe you pre-war guys need to take some photos and pass them along to CTT. Or write a story or even a letter to the editor on how you got interested in prewar. I think that alone is pretty interesting - to see you young guys into this! That's a story in itself, especially when you consider the low numbers of young people in the hobby now. You guys should all contact CTT with more info on your collections or layouts. If you guys aren't writers, maybe you could make it easier for someone who is.

I've actually been tempted to try and get a story about myself into CTT, but haven't had the guts to do it yet. Writing is something I'm quite good at and I enjoy very much. I did try sending photos in to CTT for their photo gallery, but had them rejected. It certainly wasn't my trains or layout, though. I have a pretty good camera and I thought they turned out alright, but I think that the main problem was that the lighting in my basement wasn't the greatest for the pictures.

[brianel027]

Well Sask, down here in the states in my neck of the woods, Wegmans (a grocery store) has a photo department with these digital Kodak machines where you can manipulate the color and the tone on your prints - it's pretty amazing what can be done. I was in the newspaper business at one time... readers would submit photos and there were times I had to mess with them a little in Photoshop to make them look good. Of course, when the photo is of a news event that we wanted to run, that's a little different from the CTT Photo Gallery. But I'd urge you to try again.

I do think it'd be an interesting article on some of the young modelers out there. Maybe one article that covered a bunch of younger modelers such as yourself. Not that some of you guys don't have layouts and things to say that wouldn't warrant an entire article. A visit to any train show, especially YORK overwhelmingly shows this is a hobby of much older participants. And I would say the majority of feature layout stories in the train mags are also about older modelers.

I used to co-direct an art gallery. We held these juried photo exhibits that were open to the public. One of our seasoned photographers, also a judge, was dumping on everything: "Oh I've seen that before... Old hat... Been done before... How boring." Not one to mince words, I finally told him to shut up. "What, you mean you never took a photo of a sunset when you first started? These are possibly the future pro-photographers. If you can't view the work on it's own merits for what it is, then put on your coat and leave."
This is part of the attitude that exists in the hobby today. The established modelers only want to hear about what interests them: large professional layouts, top-line scale only product reviews, pricey collectibles, command control, etc.

Guess I'm the odd ball. I enjoy the above articles but I enjoy ALL the articles and stories!! So Sask, go for it... take some pics and give it another shot. These older modelers frequently forget their first layout was not a stadium sized pike with far too many cars and top-line scale sized locomotives. I on the other hand, have never forgotten my childhood or teen-years layouts. Or those simpler less-than-scale trains that always worked, even with the abuse I inevitably gave them as a child.

That I've never forgotten has a lot to do with why I still play with trains!!

[Anonymous]

I think you'll get the same answer from Neil that I get from him. It will go something like this: "We have to do articles about items that will sell the magazine. If we did a lot of prewar, we'd lose a lot of the people that want to see the TMCC stuff." Balance is all I ever want to see here in CTT. I agree that prewar has taken a back seat. Pity.

[Anonymous]

Hi.I'm new at this.Got any tips?

[Anonymous]

I believe you're right about CTT's response, Jack ~ I just never understood it.
TMCC guys will read what thy want. Postwar guys will read what THEY want; same with prewar guys.
But when you intentionlly leave out one group, even for a short time, what do you think happens to THEIR subscriptions?
I didn't renew my subscription for exactly that reason. Too much NEW stuff in a magazine that proclaims, "CLASSIC".
Now I just visit my LHS and 'pick and choose' what issue I want. I'll change when THEY change.

[brianel027]

Trainbud, your summation is indeed part of what is wrong with the hobby... the "I, Me, Mine" way of thinking to borrow George Harrison's song title. If George was still with us and was a train guy, he could have written the same song again with much of the same frustration that prompted to write it in the first place.

I am different and I like reading ALL the articles. I learn something from all of them. BUT I know what you are saying. There was a thread on the other forum questioning the logic of wasting editorial space on starter set reviews and articles on holiday layouts. This line of thinking is so narrow-minded and selfish. When someone mentions Williams product, someone else chimes in and wishes it all had TMCC (as if they're are no other options TMCC out there). The final straw for me with the other forum came when someone said they wished 027 would just go away and be dropped forever.

I even enjoy reading the Model Railroader magazine. If you approach it with an open mind, there's information and tips that are easily adapted to our 3-rail trains. But on the other forum, you admit to reading the MR and you get called a "weenie."

The hobby is not about labels. It is about trains, regardless of size or scale. I've never understood how some can just dump on another scale as if it were the enemy? The hobby needs to be more inclusive, not exclusive! People have different incomes as well as different interests and different amounts of space they can devote to a layout. How is it that any of these modelers are any less than another? Besides, some of these scale-sized trains look just as toylike on a 31-inch or 42-inch curve as do the less-than-scale trains on an 027 curve!

It is so ironic that the train forums are filled with ligitimate gripes about the failure rate and high level of returns on command based / electronics loaded trains. The problem doesn't appear to be getting better either. YET the forums are also full of complaints every time a product appears that DOESN'T have the electronics or isn't scale-sized? Ironic huh?

Unfortunately the publishing business is driven by advertising dollars. The folks that are driving the hobby right now are an older audience that wants the high-tech and scale-sized trains. The other big audience is still the postwar collectors. Pleasing your audience is part of any business. Having worked for a newspaper, I can tell you no editor wants to take orders from an advertiser. But an advertiser's recommendations do carry some weight. No publication wants to lose a large advertising account due to editorial content. But subscribers comments also carry weight... any publication likes to keep those guaranteed subscriber dollars. And the larger your guaranteed readership, the easier it is to bring in those advertising dollars.

Whether any of this happens with CTT, well it may to one degree or another... that's just business. One way to get articles you'd like to see is to simply write a letter to the editor. This paper I worked for started running a page of personal ads from a 1-800 dating service. Some of the ads were a little bit out there. We received a small handful of angry letters with subscription cancellations - didn't take much - but the publisher said he wasn't risking losing more, and the ads were pulled.

I think CTT does a pretty good job trying to cover the bases. I wonder if the other magazine would have put a feature 3-part story on building an 027 starter layout on the cover? I'm glad CTT did that. I'm sure some are saying "why didn't they use this or that track instead?"

Granted, there are not many articles on pre-war trains. Maybe if enough folks say they want that, there will be some. The 3-rail hobby has gotten very diverse over the past decade. There are more choices than ever. Look at all the different and non-compatible track systems!!! So folks are more spread out than ever in their interests and how they model. The old adage rings true, it is hard to please everyone!

Your letters to the editor maybe the best tool towards seeing articles you'd like to read.

[Anonymous]

I have had a subscription with CTT since issue #2. I have a copy of issue #1 that
my late father gave me and that started my preference with CTT. I had been a
subscriber to Model Railroader since the 1970's, but I fell away due to the fact
that they seemed to cater only to HO'ers and most of what they did there was not
applicable to my O Gauge stuff. Great mag, though. I had then become an O Scale
Railroader subscriber in the 1980's in order to try to get the info I desired for my
use. Again, that magazine became a very narrow-viewed publication. In the past
year it has degenerated into really a catalog with three or four small articles (and
a LOT of blank page space) so I have decided to let it go. I continue to stay with
CTT because they have been, for the most part, fairly well balanced in their coverage
of the O Guage segment of the hobby.

However, I must agree that lately there has been a distinct lack of coverage of
"Classic" toy trains. I think that the balance is getting a little lopsided. There are
still MANY PreWar tinplaters out there and I don't think that an occassional bit
piece on tinplate maintenance, operation, or history would hurt the magazine.
On the contrary, it would break the "routine" and maybe, just maybe regenerate
the interest in the hobby where it is needed most. Playing with the trains, not
what costs the most, or has the most dodads, or whose is "better", but actually
PLAYING with trains! The article(s) on table layouts are a step in the right dir-
ection. There have been a few such articles in the past that featured tinplate.
I even recall one that featured a portable tinplate layout that folded into a self-
contained carrying case. It even had tinplate buildings andd accessories! Why
can't we have a few more of these?

As for the latest dodads...How many of the tech-heads out there know that the
"new" issues of classic tinplate locos are built with electronic reversing units,
bells, whistles, and even command control? The new classics are even up-
graded with heavy-duty can motors so they can operate a prototypical speeds.

These are things that CTT should be writing about as well as the latest and
greatest plastic and brass stuff. There are more similarities than one first
realizes.

Ogaugeoverlord and the rest of CTT Staff...are you reading this?

Thanks

[dk99358]

I could go for some standard gauge articles. Even tho I try to read all the articles, some just don't interest me much. I'm sure that someone else is passionate about the subject.

Sask_Tinplater: The TCA has an online mag called E*train. They are always looking for articles and are quite willing to assist new authors. Maybe you could get your feet wet with them.

Dale

[mersenne6]

I'd second the recommendation concerning writing articles on prewar trains for the TCA e-train magazine. I've written a couple of articles for them. The most recent one dealt with the prewar AF automobile car. I know Bob Mintz would be delighted to see any article on prewar trains you might be interested in writing. I've got a couple others in the works which I hope to send in before the end of the year.

If you have a real interest in some aspect of prewar and if you have spent time gathering the information, the odds are that you probably know more about that particular subject than most of the people you are likely to meet. With that level of expertise why not have a go at being an author and share your knowledge with others.

[nitroboy]

I'm a avid pre-war collector who has a very limited budget. So, to collect pre-war I came to the conclusion either to rob a bank or restore junkers. So I got into the restoration end of the buisness. I buy the cheapest, dirtiest, worse condition possible and fix 'em up like new. I learned alot from my father who did this in the 70's and 80's and just from 'getting my hands dirty' approach.

There is so much about the restoration side of the hobby that it needs some form of documentation on ways to do things. For example, stripping old pieces for painting. There are a few ways to accompli***his. Boiling in detergent, paint stripper, bead blasting.... I've experimented with all of them to find that bead blasting works the best (at least for me). No fumes, no gunky mess, just quick and easy. But to the hobbiest who would like to do this task, and is new to the restoring ways, a list of the pros and cons for each would come in quite handy.

My vote would be for a reccuring department in the pages of CTT that is devoted to the restoring side of the hobby.

Dave

[Anonymous]

You know...The original mission statement of CTT was to preserve and promote
the knowledge of collecting, restoring and operating classic toy trains of ALL brands
and eras. The founders of the magazine were/are TCA members and wanted to
get the message out to the general hobby folks as well as serve as a vehicle for
TCAers who wanted a more diverse and voluminous publication to go along with
the TCA Quarterly. Maybe they need to be reminded...?

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to put in my 2 cents worth in support of this thread.

I have been buying mostly newer stuff lately, but I am still trying to learn more about prewar, with the intention of buying something that is consistant with my postwar and modern 027 stuff. A little more coverage of such things would be helpful.

[Anonymous]

TEN YEARS AGO.... ALL there was was classic toy trains.

I have several cases full of post war engines.. dont run em ; cant with TMCC or DCS forcing me to have 16-18V on full all the time.

Also they never really worked all that well; as soon as you passed over a switch track, the e-unit would buzz and click the engine into neutral. The detailing on an old 637 or 2046 is by today's standards, well crap!

the F3s of yore really dont hold a candle to the latest F3 Santa Fe by Lionel!

There was no sound system, chuff rates, engineer chatter... remote control tracks were needed at select points that you wanted to uncouple the engines from the cars... yuk.

The accessories ran on vibrating loud motors..

I'd really rather forget those junkers and keep em in a case..

Just me. The rest of you can wax nostalgic all you want. But I LOL when I see some nut at train show trying to sell old F3s for $3500 or more...


Anyone want the guy's name???


Alan
.

[FJ and G]

I'm interested in modern stuff & hi-rail & surveys do indicate an increased amount of interest in these areas.

Having said that, I realize and fully empathize with those who like pre/post-war stuff.

My solution would be to make the magazine about twice as thick to include a bit of everything. To thicken the magazine, you need to go like hel* after advertising dollars.

Since a lot of older folks read the magazine, maybe some Viagra ads, pacemaker (not the NYC trains but the heart thingies), and some big cigar ads. I guarantee you that your ad revenues will be more than enough to triple the size of your magazine.


Dave Vergun

[Anonymous]

Vergun;

You ARE kidding.......Right? RIGHT?!

[cnw1995]

I'm a new subscriber to CTT - just a few issues - and I enjoy all the stories - if I can paraphrase brienel, I try to see what I can learn from them if they're not exactly what I'm interested in... I like the ones on old trains too - even if I don't have any of them - like the article on the AF tank cars.

[FJ and G]

Lionel Scout. Mom sold it when I joined the Marine Corps. Grrrrr

--------

Oops just noticed that this posted to the wrong topic. Should have posted to: What was your first train set. Oh well, it'll have to stay here for now.

[Anonymous]

David NEVER kids around.....

And he never makes mistakes either!

[Anonymous]

I've stated this before, and I'm sure Kalmbach doesn't really care, but...

I'LL SUBSCRIBE AGAIN WHEN THEY PUT THE "CLASSIC" BACK IN "CTT".

Until then, I'll pick and choose what magazines I purchase.
Not that it matters.

[cheapclassics]

When CTT first started, Lionel was the only major player. K-line was still making Marx and Kusan re-issues, and MTH was just getting started. LGB items usually appeared in every issue. The biggest advertisers were the dealers selling the postwar and prewar collector stuff. Now the market has changed. Garden Railways took the G market away, which makes sense for Kalmbach. The big money is in the new items, and operations rule the roost. There will always be a place for the prewar, the postwar, and the O-27 fans. It is just that the place is not always at the head of the table.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[brianel027]

Okay, I need to respond and clarify some things here.

AlanNH: while you are correct that the detailing, realism and operating possibilities today are far improved over the trains of yesterday, I've never had problems with e-units reversing over switches. Very often the problem is not bad trains, but old dirty track.

The reason the older trains are so popular is they DID work well (with a few exceptions like Scouts) AND could be repaired either locally or by the owner. The repair/failure rate on the new stuff has been high (40% I've heard). I doubt the Lionel of postwar days ever had a return rate even half of that.

Even the train magazines have reviewed new scale-sized/electronic features loaded product that was dead on arrival. Every single TMCC and DCS operator I know has had to return product. The OGRR Forum has had no shortage of compalints on product failure. I've never once ever had to send away a postwar engine for repairs. The older trains are not junkers unless they're beat up. I agree with you on the price frenzy over some of the older stuff. But the prices on the new stuff aren't all that attractive either on a list price level. Where people are spending money is when they see blowout prices listed.

David: the surveys do show a marked increase in operators over collectors. But they also show the biggest jump in sales has been with starter related items... ie: lower end non-command stuff. Lionel's own statements have stated the starter product showed the most dramatic jump in sales. That's been stated in both train magazines.

Sure, the newer electronic loaded, scale stuff does sell. And the new features and scale detail has converted former HO modelers. But this still doesn't indicate there are more "scale" modelers. When you see the magazine articles on these basement sized layouts with the latest scale-sized feature loaded product all over the layout, it shows one person is spending a lot of money on trains. With the new scale product, I think it's a case of fewer modelers spending much more money and buying more product than the typical operator.

The majority of train modelers don't have basement-sized layouts, nor can afford to spend thousands of dollars on trains in a single purchase. But that doesn't mean that other traditional train buyers aren't concerned with operation.

Mike C: The big money may or may not be on the new scale items. There is definitely a prestige thing here - and very stiff competition. The train companies are not going to take a back seat to one another if they can help it. That means they will continue to compete heavily on the newest hi-tech developments, regardless of sales numbers... and there's certainly no shortage of blowout prices on high-end scale product either. Which means it isn't selling as well as it should.

The postwar guys and 027 guys (speaking for myself) aren't asking to be at the head of the table. We just want to be included at the table once in a while. The advances in the hobby are wonderful, no question. And on a very large layout, I can see the real advantages of command operation.

When (in other threads) I talk about seeing some new 027-type product, I'm not talking about a flood of new 027 items. Nor am I talking about doing it at the cost of the scale product. I'm talking about one new representative engine to become today's equal to the 1950's Alco FA.

Guys, when you go to an automobile show, it's always the top line, luxury car that gets all the ooohs and ahhhs and gets the most press. But it's the K-car that sells the most. Same with open houses at real estate projects... folks dream of the manion on the hill, but live in a double-wide modular home. From the folks I know, 027 and 0 tubular traditional operators outnumber scale command guys 6 to one.

The new high end trains may also get all the oooohs and ahhhs, and attract the most attention. Whether they actually sell more, I'd have to see some actual sales figures. Dealers I speak with tell me what I already know... the lower end non-command, non-scale starter-types of products sell way better than the high end stuff. My last visit to a train shop: all the Lionel starter cars and non-command engines were gone... sold out. Train-19 cars had to be reordered. All RMT Beeps were sold out. Most of the top line scale items that were on the shelves before Christmas were still there on the shelves.

The hobby is more diverse than ever. Reflecting on that diversity is a good thing. It shouldn't have to come at the cost of excluding anyone. The more folks in the hobby, the merrier. That means wide variety of product at a wide variety of prices. In my book, high end is no more worthier than low end. They're all still trains.