Regarding the original question, I think if you encounter an MSRP that conflicts with the manufacturer's, then this would be considered an unethical practice, and one should simply not purchase from that particular seller. After all, if the seller sees fit to alter the MSRP, how ethical could his/her other business practices be?
It also seems as is the thread has digressed from a discussion of MSRP to LHS vs. internet puchasing and prices. I have a few thoughts on this. In my area there are two LHS sellers. Both are very ethical people and know a lot about trains. One of these has cleaned up a large Lionel postwar collection for me. I feel comfortable knowing that the job was performed well and I was treated fairly. I have purchased products from both of these businesses. The price was higher than what I would have paid on the internet or by mail order. However, I know when I purchase from either business, I am getting what I have paid for, returns or repairs will be done, if necessary, with no questions asked, and they will answer any questions I have about train collection or operation.
I have also bought by mail order and internet, and have had overall good success with both of those avenues. I have also had a few bad experiences. Have any of you tried to return an item that was purchased via internet? More often than not, the hassle is not worth the dollars saved.
I think it's a question of preference. For me, I would rather give the business to the local guy who shops at the same places I do and is willing to talk to me about what he does and sells. It's a lot more pleasant experience than buying a box of something form someone I don't know, who gets a lot of boxes of product in and out every day. In my opinion it has to do with community and personality, which is one of the things that keeps the hobby in motion and fun.
Tom
3railguy wrote:We get your point. However, as I said in my first post, the dealer stated "Suggested Retail", not "Manfacturers Suggested Retail Price".That's his loophole. He left out "Manufacturer" so legally, there is nothing Lionel can do. Technically, he is not misrepresenting them. Our free enterprise laws prevent Lionel from taking any action.
We get your point. However, as I said in my first post, the dealer stated "Suggested Retail", not "Manfacturers Suggested Retail Price".
That's his loophole. He left out "Manufacturer" so legally, there is nothing Lionel can do. Technically, he is not misrepresenting them. Our free enterprise laws prevent Lionel from taking any action.
I disagree.
The term "Suggested Retail Price" is officially set by the manufacturer.
Not you... ....your neighbor next door... .... the guy down the street... .... your local hobby shop owner... .. or anyone else!! Only the manufacturer can set the MSRP.
Anyone reading the words "Sugg. retail", knows by implication that it was set by the manufacturer/wholesaler/selling agent.
Any retailer misrepresenting the actual MSRP, would most likely suffer the consequences if any legal action was pursued.
stevend wrote: I disagree. The term "Suggested Retail Price" is officially set by the manufacturer.Not you... ....your neighbor next door... .... the guy down the street... .... your local hobby shop owner... .. or anyone else!! Only the manufacturer can set the MSRP.Anyone reading the words "Sugg. retail", knows by implication that it was set by the manufacturer/wholesaler/selling agent.Any retailer misrepresenting the actual MSRP, would most likely suffer the consequences if any legal action was pursued.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that the practice isn't shady, it seems to me to be a matter of them taking advantage of "social engineering". In that we are accustomed to understanding things in certain ways when we read them, which sometimes causes us to miss certain key details (i.e. stating "suggested retail" vs "MSRP"). This seller can quite honestly say that the suggested retail price of that locomotive set is $400; what he's not telling you is that the retail price was suggested by the guy's brother.
I think what's being said (I know by myself) is that customer research solves this problem, if we do our homework (like we're supposed to) then we won't purchase from shady businesses which may in turn cause them to adjust their business practices and state the real MSRP, if not then they just don't sell them.
If you really want to get pro-active then look up where the business is located and call their local BBB and report them for deceptive business practices, until then its buyer beware; and always do your homework.
BDT in Minnesota wrote:One of the worst things a business owner can do is assume that his customers will be too stupid to realize the prices have been inflated or "jacked up"....I once worked for an outfit that tried to pull this crap.....
Yep, that kind of thinking is always for the short term gain, but ends up with long term losses of exponential proportions especially in a community like the train hobby where lots of folks really know their stuff. They may sucker the first time buyer, but then they loose that buyer and may cost the industry that collector. The hobbiest simply files the retailer into the "crook" drawer and then moves on.
ATSJer wrote: stevend wrote: I disagree. The term "Suggested Retail Price" is officially set by the manufacturer.Not you... ....your neighbor next door... .... the guy down the street... .... your local hobby shop owner... .. or anyone else!! Only the manufacturer can set the MSRP.Anyone reading the words "Sugg. retail", knows by implication that it was set by the manufacturer/wholesaler/selling agent.Any retailer misrepresenting the actual MSRP, would most likely suffer the consequences if any legal action was pursued.I don't think that anyone is arguing that the practice isn't shady, it seems to me to be a matter of them taking advantage of "social engineering". In that we are accustomed to understanding things in certain ways when we read them, which sometimes causes us to miss certain key details (i.e. stating "suggested retail" vs "MSRP"). This seller can quite honestly say that the suggested retail price of that locomotive set is $400; what he's not telling you is that the retail price was suggested by the guy's brother. I think what's being said (I know by myself) is that customer research solves this problem, if we do our homework (like we're supposed to) then we won't purchase from shady businesses which may in turn cause them to adjust their business practices and state the real MSRP, if not then they just don't sell them.If you really want to get pro-active then look up where the business is located and call their local BBB and report them for deceptive business practices, until then its buyer beware; and always do your homework.
Our free enterprise system allows I or anyone to suggest whatever price we want. Again the retailer unlinked "manufacturer" from "suggested retail" and made "suggested retail" his suggested retail price which is perfecty legal. One point you and a few others are missing is both the manufacturer and the retailer state "suggested". You are confusing "suggested retail" with "ceiling price". The law forbids ceiling prices on non essential goods. Companies have been sued for it. It is often called price fixing. "Suggested" is not a rule. Much like an auction, it allows one to adjust the price to whatever the market will pay.
3railguy wrote:Our free enterprise system allows I or anyone to suggest whatever price we want. Again the retailer unlinked "manufacturer" from "suggested retail" and made "suggested retail" his suggested retail price which is perfecty legal. One point you and a few others are missing is both the manufacturer and the retailer state "suggested". You are confusing "suggested retail" with "ceiling price". The law forbids ceiling prices on non essential goods. Companies have been sued for it. It is often called price fixing. "Suggested" is not a rule. Much like an auction, it allows one to adjust the price to whatever the market will pay.
Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with you. I don't think the guy is doing anything "illegal", it just seems to me that he intentionally uses the "suggested retail" to give the impression that this is the "suggested" price set by some authority, and most commonly our culture has come to recognize that authority being the manufacturer; this is what I meant by him taking advantage of the social engineering (i.e. we've been socially "trained" to think in certain ways he simply is trying to take advantage of that training). However, as I think I stated before, the burden still falls on the buyer to do his/her homework before buying, and if this homework is done prior to the purchase then this guy's short term plan simply backfires.
3railguy wrote: ATSJer wrote: stevend wrote: I disagree. The term "Suggested Retail Price" is officially set by the manufacturer.Not you... ....your neighbor next door... .... the guy down the street... .... your local hobby shop owner... .. or anyone else!! Only the manufacturer can set the MSRP.Anyone reading the words "Sugg. retail", knows by implication that it was set by the manufacturer/wholesaler/selling agent.Any retailer misrepresenting the actual MSRP, would most likely suffer the consequences if any legal action was pursued.I don't think that anyone is arguing that the practice isn't shady, it seems to me to be a matter of them taking advantage of "social engineering". In that we are accustomed to understanding things in certain ways when we read them, which sometimes causes us to miss certain key details (i.e. stating "suggested retail" vs "MSRP"). This seller can quite honestly say that the suggested retail price of that locomotive set is $400; what he's not telling you is that the retail price was suggested by the guy's brother. I think what's being said (I know by myself) is that customer research solves this problem, if we do our homework (like we're supposed to) then we won't purchase from shady businesses which may in turn cause them to adjust their business practices and state the real MSRP, if not then they just don't sell them.If you really want to get pro-active then look up where the business is located and call their local BBB and report them for deceptive business practices, until then its buyer beware; and always do your homework.Our free enterprise system allows I or anyone to suggest whatever price we want. Again the retailer unlinked "manufacturer" from "suggested retail" and made "suggested retail" his suggested retail price which is perfecty legal. One point you and a few others are missing is both the manufacturer and the retailer state "suggested". You are confusing "suggested retail" with "ceiling price". The law forbids ceiling prices on non essential goods. Companies have been sued for it. It is often called price fixing. "Suggested" is not a rule. Much like an auction, it allows one to adjust the price to whatever the market will pay.
P.S. - Did not mean to upset you with the last post... it was a general comment, not directed at you personally.
jaabat wrote: I've been buying undecorated decal sheets from a LHS for years. Always $2 a sheet. Last week the stock was out and I asked the owner to order some more for me. I bought them on Saturday, but they were now $2.50 a sheet. The guy purposely marked them up because he knew I needed them. He does stuff like that since I took him to school with a Lionel 2056 Hudson and 2400 series coaches. He's always trying to stick it to me to even the score. For the most part, I avoid his store. But he's the only one I know of that carries the decal sheets. So I ate you know what this time, but he lost a regular customer. Life's too short to deal with that sort of bull.Jim
I've been buying undecorated decal sheets from a LHS for years. Always $2 a sheet. Last week the stock was out and I asked the owner to order some more for me. I bought them on Saturday, but they were now $2.50 a sheet. The guy purposely marked them up because he knew I needed them. He does stuff like that since I took him to school with a Lionel 2056 Hudson and 2400 series coaches. He's always trying to stick it to me to even the score. For the most part, I avoid his store. But he's the only one I know of that carries the decal sheets. So I ate you know what this time, but he lost a regular customer. Life's too short to deal with that sort of bull.
Jim
The first search I did found this:
http://www.decalpaper.com/
$8.50 for 10 8-1/2" x 11" Inkjet Decal Sheets
add $8.50 shipping and you've got 10 sheets for $1.70 each.
If you buy 50 sheets you'll pay less than a dollar each. Maybe you could sell them to your LHS.
Bob Keller
"If you look at any Hobby Shop with the Lionel logo on their door, it says, 'Lionel Authorized VALUE added dealer'. This to means that the dealer is free to charge what the dealer deems appropriate, HOWEVER they are NOT allowed to charge OVER what Lionel sets as it's price. They can sell it for less (a practice Lionel does not approve of), but they should NOT be selling items above the list price in the catalog..."
------------------
Sorry, but no part of that quote is accurate or correct. For example, the term "value added" has nothing to do with pricing.
Allan Miller wrote: "If you look at any Hobby Shop with the Lionel logo on their door, it says, 'Lionel Authorized VALUE added dealer'. This to means that the dealer is free to charge what the dealer deems appropriate, HOWEVER they are NOT allowed to charge OVER what Lionel sets as it's price. They can sell it for less (a practice Lionel does not approve of), but they should NOT be selling items above the list price in the catalog..."------------------Sorry, but no part of that quote is accurate or correct. For example, the term "value added" has nothing to do with pricing.
That is correct. It has nothing to do with pricing. The only time the law allowed Lionel to control pricing was around the Korean war which is why we see "Ceiling Price" stamped on the ends of some postwar boxes.
Our free market system is a two way street. It seems OK for dealer to blow out merchandise for half price. Everyone celebrates.
3railguy wrote:Our free market system is a two way street. It seems OK for dealer to blow out merchandise for half price. Everyone celebrates.
I know I do!!
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