Interesting morning. Just to add to the data-base, I decided to try to get my older model CW-80 (0603) to misbehave and succeeded this time. Put a Williams CSX diesel cab number 7848 on the bench track and began adding lamps in parallel to the accessory terminals. With two 14 volt lamps all was well. With 4, however, the e-unit began cycling erratically, and with 8 it wouldn't cycle at all.
Disconnected the lamps and substituted a postwar-vintage motorized accessory (397 coal loader.) No problem. Re-connected a couple of lamps in parallel with the 397. Big problem: the e-unit wouldn't cycle, the loco wouldn't run, the coal loader wouldn't run. Nothing would run, on either the throttle side or the accessory side. The green light (overload indicator) stayed on and never even blinked. During all this excitement the horn sounded spontaneously a couple of times.
Thought I had "blown" the loco, the transfomer or both. Put loco on layout, powered by postwar ZW, and it worked perfectly. Back to the workbench. Tried several loads individually on the CW. No throttle response, no useful accessory output. The lamps (2) just blinked about once per second, whether connected to the throttle posts or the accessory posts. Unplugged the CW from house current, let it stand for a few seconds, plugged it back in and all was well once again -- as if it had been "re-booted."
This is the first time in over three years of trying that I have been able to re-create one of the CW-80 mis-behaviors that I have read so much about. Don't have a clue as to what caused it or why it cleared up. Advice for rudedog and HooperSJ: Call Lionel Tech Service. Speak to a male. If a woman answers, hang up. Not politically correct, of course, but possibly the best advice based on my experiences with that bunch.
bfskinner,
That's awesome that you were able to recreate what I am experiencing. Again, no answers, but it suggests there is a connection with significant load on the accessory output and the track output. As I said before, for me the answer will lie in running my lights off an separate aux transformer and just running someting that needs a unique voltage setting off the CW-80. My sawmill loves running off my other CW-80.
Bob Nelson
[This post crossed with Lionelsoni's latest.]
HopperSJ, rudedog, lionroar88, and others,
The Owners Manual for the older model CW-80 says the following: "Your CW-80 Transformer provides a total output of five amps. The track outputs will deliver all of this power to the track when no accessories are connected to the transformer." [Emphasis mine.] "Keep in mind that connected accessories borrow some of this power. For example, if the accessories require two amps of the five-amp capacity of the transformer, you have three amps available for track power." --Lionel CW-80 Transformer Owner's Manual, part number 71-4198-250, 11/05, p.10.
From this I infer that the accessory outputs can deliver at least 2 amps, but it is not clear that they they can deliver more than that. Page 11 goes on to say "Accessory operation is intermittent or absent [.] Check for loose, shorted, or improper connections. The accessory output voltage may have been set too low for the accessory."
My "library" does not contain any more information than that.
Assuming that each lamp draws 0.25 amps, my 8 bulbs would have drawn exactly 2 amps. HooperSJ's first three accessories should have drawn only 3/4 amp. Adding the two-bulb "cathedral" would have brought the load on the U and B posts to only 1 1/4 amps. What is available to the accessory side depends on what was being driven by the throttle posts. Not having any amperage charts, I don't know how much that was. And if the transformer was truly overloaded, why did the green lamp not blink its cheerful warning? Or did I just miss it on a well-lighted workbench with a whole lot of excitements going on? I can make mine blink and "fold-back" power anytime I want by simply adding enough illuminated passenger cars to a consist. Why did my CW go into "hiccup mode" and why did it reboot itself after being unplugged? Could it be that hiccup mode and extreme fold-back were one and the same thing?
Still, lionroar88 may have hit it. It would be useful to know, with no train or other load connected to the throttle posts, how much of its rated 5 amps can the CW-80 deliver to the accessory posts? And what effect would running a modest-sized loco on the throttle have on the accessory output? Anyone want to call and find out? I would, but I'm tired of getting hung-up on. Lionel Tech Service should be open tomorrow, Wednesday, for those who dare.
You might want to post this problem on the OGR forum. They have several authorities on the CW-80, including Dale Manquen who posts under his real name, as does Chuck Sartor of Mizell Trains, and of course there is OGR executive and train-repair guru Dave Barrett, who responds to questions now and again. I am not a member of that forum, but I do read it occasionally.
bfskinner wrote:Assuming that each lamp draws 0.25 amps, my 8 bulbs would have drawn exactly 2 amps. HooperSJ's first three accessories should have drawn only 3/4 amp. Adding the two-bulb "cathedral" would have brought the load on the U and B posts to only 1 1/4 amps. What is available to the accessory side depends on what was being driven by the throttle posts. Not having any amperage charts, I don't know how much that was. And if the transformer was truly overloaded, why did the green lamp not blink its cheerful warning? Or did I just miss it on a well-lighted workbench with a whole lot of excitements going on? I can make mine blink and "fold-back" power anytime I want by simply adding enough illuminated passenger cars to a consist. Why did my CW go into "hiccup mode" and why did it reboot itself after being unplugged? Could it be that hiccup mode and extreme fold-back were one and the same thing?
Well my accessories had more lamps than you mentioned. Here they are:
Irene's diner - 3 bulbs (.25 * 3 = .75)
speeder shed - 1 bulb (.25)
log cabin - 1 bulb (.25)
illuminated station platform - 2 bulbs (.25 * 2 = .50)
Therefore the first four accessories had .75 + .25 + .25 + .50 = 1.75 amps
Then I added the cathedral - 2 bulbs (2 * .25 = .50) making the total amp draw 2.25 amps.
That may confirm your theory bfskinner. Although, like you, I wonder why I didn't get any blinking of my light. I just assumed Percy was having problems until I did further investigation and discovered it was isolated to him (and Thomas). My other engines are all small. I wonder what would have happened if I had a big diesel or larger steamer. Maybe it would act irradically like your's did on your bench....
Well, I dont think Im overloading the CW80. It won't cycle when just 1 wheat bulb and a Docksider are present. And of course if you pull the plug or wire, the e unit cycles fine. What makes me unhappy is that we have more than one of these old production transformers. Each of them reacts the same.
Yes, we tested them when we got the sets. And I thought that it was a good idea to get another set just cause the transformer seemed so nice. But using the transformer as it was intended, with accessories (ie. a lamp post) it does not work properly. Im sure Lionel expected us to buy some accessories to add, otherwise why bother having the accessory side.
In this case you got a 10 year old trying to build a semi permanent first layout and its just not working for us. Tried many engines. Really serves us no better than an MPC era blue, red or black 2 post transformer.
The bottom line is I will try to work with it and see if I can tune it by adding just the right amount of bulbs to the track. Maybe it will work. Otherwise, I will buy him a rejuvenated 1033 transformer. Why would you want to stop and keep going forward anyway, wouldnt it be easier to turn off the reverse unit and accomplish the same thing.
rudedog,
Were you able to get in touch with Lionel? Any joy?
Rudedog, et al,
Is this thread dead? It began with such promise. I thought we had a chance to learn something really useful about the CW-80. What happened?
Just got off the phone with a lady csr at Lionel...
No questions asked, she was typing up a return authorize request before I finished talking. She said they will take back all three of my 2004 dated CW80's and swap them out with new ones. Even gonna pay my shipping if I include the postage receipt.
As long as they are true to their word I will still be a Lionel fan. For me its more than just these transformers... I needed a boost like this cause with all the lawsuits and esp the downfall of K-Line, I was losing interest in trains and esp Lionel.
Only one other time did I use Lionel customer service and they were great that time as well. This time they have gone way above and beyond standing behind their product, as I thought they should have recalled these anyway.
I will let everyone know the outcome. Thanks to you guys too.
Congratulations! I'm surprised, but happy for you.
When you get your new one, aftermaking sure it's not just new but also one of the revised ones, please report back on how it handles your particular accessory-post load problem as described in your earlier posts.
Well, sports fans, after reading of "rudedog's" apparent success this morning, I called Lionel Customer Service -- and got skunked once again. I asked them to replace my two older-version, clearly out-of-warranty CW-80's,* and when that was turned down I offered to settle for just one. No dice.
The service rep asked why I hadn't asked for a replacement sooner, but when I pointed out that at the time that I bought these, Lionel had nothing to replace them with that wasn't equally defective (A and B posts as common, whereas U and U should have been) she had no answer.
I'm the first to admit that both of my CW's run my trains just fine, but the "common ground problem" is annoying, because it won't let me use the accessory terminals as intended. Today was hardly the first time that I have brought this to their attention.
One new twist today, however: while reiterating that Lionel doesn't repair them at all, she said that if I could find a service station that had experience repairing the older BW-80 transformers (the ones that employed a controller plus a separate power brick) they could easily re-wire a CW-80 and make it right. In fact, she described the difficulty of the process as "...that's nothing."
Well, many of us have all known for a long time that if one could get past the tamper-resistant screws, get the case off (and get it back together afterwards) there wasn't much to reconnecting a wire or two; but this is the first time in my several calls to Lionel that they ever suggested that some of their service stations might make such a repair.
She was kind enough to give me the phone numbers of a couple of possibilities in my area. At least she was civil, and unlike the rep from my most recent call, did not hang up on me. When I asked whether I could quote her she said yes. Heretofore, I have always been told that there was no repair service available for the CW-80 -- period. I did not ask what this wire-switching service might cost.
Those are today's facts. Brief discussion follows:
Here was yet another example of what I call "Lionel Logic." The rep puzzled that I hadn't asked for a repacement earlier; that is, back when the only replacements available all had exactly the same defect. It has only been in the past year (perhaps as little as the most recent 10 months) that they had revised models available. Well, duh!
If there is "nothing" to fixing the mis-wiring of the early CW-80's, why didn't Lionel tell us that from the beginning? Why did it take the better part of three years for the the Chinese manufacturer to stop doing it wrong and start building them right?
According to a recent post on the other major toy-train forum, the chief engineer at Lionel stoutly maintained for a matter of years that there was "no problem" with the CW-80 -- rather like what Chevy and Ford told us about the Corvair and the Pinto. I understand he is no longer with Lionel.
Some of you may have better luck than I did, but don't count on it. It may depend on whom you talk to; but I see no evidence of a change in the bleak "corporate policy" that has surrounded the CW-80 right from the get-go.
I believe that if you have an older version of the CW that is clearly out of warrantly, you have little recourse other than to try to find a repair shop to fix it at your expense. If you have an old version that is still under warranty, you may be able to get Lionel to replace it with one of the new, revised ones.
Lionel Customer Service seems fond of suggesting that customers write letters about their concerns. A month ago I did exactly that. I suggested that certain Owner's Manuals need prompt attention, particularly as they dealt with "the CW-80" (both versions), accessories, and the various special FasTrack sections. I addressed the letter to Jerry Calabrese himself. To date I have received no response -- not even an acknowledgement of receipt -- from either Mr. Calabrese or a "staffer," and no action or impending action is apparent. Big surprise.
* Dates of manufacture: 0603, 0405:
NEW TRANSFORMERS ARE HERE
All three of my transformers were replaced with new ones. The one that I opened said 09/06.
If I were you I would first ascertain that each of the new transformers is a "newly revised" one. (I would be very surprised if the one dated 9/06 is not.) Then I would begin with a very basic hook-up with the red terminal to center rail and the black terminal to outside rail. Then connect it to a simple track (a few straight sections) and ascertain that the direction control works reliably and that the whistle/horn button and the bell button do what they are supposed to. If the direction button fails to operate correctly, add an illuminated caboose or a lamp or the like, and see whether that fixes it.
As you add accessories you should use the red accessory terminal as "power" and the black one as "common."
If all that works, then you can keep adding things one at a time until things go haywire again, bearing in mind that at some level you will overload the transformer. You've only got a maximum of five amps to play with. If you attempt to exceed that, the CW-80 should protect itself by going into "foldback mode," reducing the power, and flashing its green light continuously. You can safely ignore occasional flashes, particularly when accelerating a train. such as starting from a dead stop, but if throttling-back does not cause the green light to stop flashing, the controller is clearly overloaded.
Hope all goes well. Please post your results in detail.
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