"He said dollar for dollar the Z-4000 is way beyond a better system and quote " much more reliable and packed with many more advanced features ""
And I can find you dealers who will say the same thing about the ZW. Nobody's arguing the Z4000 isn't a fine power supply with many excellent features. What I'm saying is that any dealer who says the ZW is "buggy" is either misinformed or has an agenda. That's not the general experience whatever few bad experiences this one guy has had. And in many circumstances, the ZW is the better choice, just not for you and your dealer.
God bless TCA 05-58541 Benefactor Member of the NRA, Member of the American Legion, Retired Boss Hog of Roseyville , KC&D Qualified
neil: There must be something to what Just a Hobo's dealer said, since CTT also states in their repair article that "some issues still appeared" with the ZW even after Lionel made production changes.
Just a Hobo: I have NO doubt you will enjoy the heck out of the Z-4000. I also like the volt/amp readouts and am glad I didn't have to fork over extra to have it. Don't worry about me and the comments from the "high post clique". They take particular delight in attacking me and I just laugh it off. When they can't win a discussion with logic, they resort to sarcasm. I just mark it up as another win for our side and move on. Neil isn't a member of that clique (sorry Neil, LOL) and presented valid points for both sides. Notice how the "high posters" called in reinforcements when they started losing their side of the discussion? That is SOP for them. That's okay, if being the "gods of the forum" makes them feel more important, let them. Heck, we can form our own group of "knowledgeable newbies". And we don't need this ---> to make us happy
Dep
Virginian Railroad
"CTT also states in their repair article that "some issues still appeared" with the ZW even after Lionel made production changes."
No manufactured item is bulletproof. That having been said, only a small percentage of current ZWs develop the handle problem. Even the Z4000 is not entirely problem proof. There were a small number that don't quite go to zero current, for instance, when they should, which can create problems with some locos in conventional mode.
When folks start talking about the Z4000 being "better value" they obviously aren't thinking about those who want to have the option of remote control wirelessly and/or using >2 outputs. The ZW has built in remote capability for four outputs, it can be added to the Z4000 for another $70-80 or so per two outputs. So if you want four remote outputs on two Z4000s, it will cost you a bit more than the single ZW. You can put four ouputs with 760 watts on a ZW for the cost of a ZW (say 400 dollars) plus another two powerhouses (say $150-160). That's considerably less than $1 per watt. If you want four outputs on a Z4000, you need two Z4000's ($800), which is about $150 more than the ZW. But if you want volt/amp readouts, you've got to buy them for the ZWs. You pays your money and takes your choice ;).
nblum wrote:...Nobody's arguing the Z4000 isn't a fine power supply with many excellent features. What I'm saying is that any dealer who says the ZW is "buggy" is either misinformed or has an agenda. That's not the general experience whatever few bad experiences this one guy has had. And in many circumstances, the ZW is the better choice, just not for you and your dealer.
Nobody's arguing the Z4000 isn't a fine power supply with many excellent features. What I'm saying is that any dealer who says the ZW is "buggy" is either misinformed or has an agenda. That's not the general experience whatever few bad experiences this one guy has had. And in many circumstances, the ZW is the better choice, just not for you and your dealer.
Ditto! As I said before the only advantage the new ZW/bricks has over EVERY other transformer/controller is that when combined with the CAB1/Command Base it provides remote very fine slow speed operation of CONVENTIONAL locomotives in addition to the readily available bell/whistle buttons and fast acting circuit protection.
Any transformer with a handle can do the same thing but without the remote feature (older trainsformers often need a bell button and circuit breaker). Any TMCC power controller (think TPU) can do the same thing but without the handle overide feature.
Perhaps the Z4000 can do both with its remote, but I am not sure if it also has the 5V minimum like the DCS controller has. The Z4000 sure does have nice gauges and is great for programing PS1 engines. I guess it just depends on exactly what you want to do.
Jim H
Deputy wrote: neil: There must be something to what Just a Hobo's dealer said, since CTT also states in their repair article that "some issues still appeared" with the ZW even after Lionel made production changes. Just a Hobo: I have NO doubt you will enjoy the heck out of the Z-4000. I also like the volt/amp readouts and am glad I didn't have to fork over extra to have it. Don't worry about me and the comments from the "high post clique". They take particular delight in attacking me and I just laugh it off. When they can't win a discussion with logic, they resort to sarcasm. I just mark it up as another win for our side and move on. Neil isn't a member of that clique (sorry Neil, LOL) and presented valid points for both sides. Notice how the "high posters" called in reinforcements when they started losing their side of the discussion? That is SOP for them. That's okay, if being the "gods of the forum" makes them feel more important, let them. Heck, we can form our own group of "knowledgeable newbies". And we don't need this ---> to make us happy Dep
Deputy, you are about to push the "button". Your record of posts on this forum is sarcasm, I know more than anyone, along with rudeness. There are no "Gods of the forum". Just friends that seem to get along with just about everyone but YOU.
Neil: I agree everything has some kind of "bug" when they first come out. But the ZW seems to have persistent ones even to this day. CTT's words, not mine.
Jim: Yep...for those who wish conventional controil I see your point about the advantages of the ZW. I only use the CAB-1 to activate certain features on Lionel locos. Otherwise, it's strictly DCC for me. And I have very few conventional locos, so that feature isn't of great advantage for me. Boils down to personal preference.
Chief: Nice try. But I ain't taking that bait. ZBTW...if you and the clique can't get along with me, why do all of you keep appearing in threads replying to me???? I don't go popping into YOUR coffeepot thread stirring things up.
Deputy wrote: Chief: Nice try. But I ain't taking that bait. ZBTW...if you and the clique can't get along with me, why do all of you keep appearing in threads replying to me???? I don't go popping into YOUR coffeepot thread stirring things up.Dep
Deal. BTW: don't post claiming to correct others who are right when you do not know what you are talking about. That does not include your oppinons which I respect your right to post. God bless you.
ChiefEagles wrote: Deputy wrote: Chief: Nice try. But I ain't taking that bait. ZBTW...if you and the clique can't get along with me, why do all of you keep appearing in threads replying to me???? I don't go popping into YOUR coffeepot thread stirring things up.DepDeal. BTW: don't post claiming to correct others who are right when you do not know what you are talking about. That does not include your oppinons which I respect your right to post. God bless you.
adios
Very well said Chief.
Whoa, Like to jump in here and say this thread is starting to sound like an occassional OGR thread. Usually don't see much of this around here, and that's why I spend more time here.
Modern ZW (which I own and love) and z4000 (which I almost bought and do like a lot) both really nice pieces of modern equipment. Each has it's ideal user. Case should be closed. To each his own.
nuff said
Mike S.
" You plug the tmcc remote base into the z-4000 and use the mth remote programmed for all it's functions eliminating the controller on the tmcc if you want. That's what the man had and worked flawlessly. The ZW has no such abilities. "
I'm afraid either you've been given incorrect information or misunderstood. The MTH DCS system and the Z4000 are two completely independent MTH components. You cannot plug a command base for TMCC into the Z4000 and do anything with the DCS handheld. You would need both the Z4000 and the DCS system, which will cost you about ± $700 MSRP. The same is true of the ZW and the TMCC combo of the cab-1 and command base, except the MSRP will be about $550 or so. Admittedly you cannot control PS2 MTH locos in command mode, but that is solely because MTH refuses to allow that to be done.
Finally, just to be clear.....the DCS system only emulates the most common TMCC functions so don't throw away your Cab-1. If you need to reset a TMCC loco after a derailment, which happens every now and then, you cannot use DCS to do so. It's not implemented. Same for setting momentum, lashups, setting the startup voltage. Not implemented in DCS.
None of this has to do with the Z4000, which is not a command device, or for that matter the ZW, which also is a conventional control device with, unlike the Z4000, remote capabilities built in to control four outputs, as mentioned above.
I have a real dilema......
At home I have a new ZW, TMCC, and DCS TIU. I also have both handheld units. Everything powered with the ZW, running Conventional, TMCC, and DCS Proto 2 Equipment. Works great but I like the DCS handheld the best.
At the club we go to they have the Z400 xfmr, TMCC, DCS and 4 TIU's, we only run the TMCC equip and DCS at the club, (to many other people to run Conventional), however always use the TMCC handheld,it works best.
Dilema ---- Using both and liking it!
Don
I figure anytime folks are deadlocked on which is the best, then the differences probably are not all that great!
That said I love my DCS AND my New ZW/TMCC combo. If I did not run conventional I would probably prefer the Z4000.
Jim H:
Well said. The bottom line is that I don't think a hobbyist can go wrong with either option. After looking (and touching, testing, etc.) at both, I ended up with the Z4000. But that is only because it suited my particular circumstances. Both units are exceptional. I like the voltage/amperage readout on the MTH unit, but the ZW has not only more setup functionality, it is also much better looking.
Regards,
John O
Just to go for a second, but John, that pic of the S2 turbine looks AWESOME!!!
Hello Dep:
Thanks. I got it from the http://www.steamlocomotive.com/ site. My first trainset I had as a kid was a used Lionel 2217ws with a Lionel 682 turbine. I got rid of it a long time ago. I do not really miss it, because it took a lot of abuse (both in use and in storage).
I did purchase MTH's Imperial line S2 that came out last year. It runs great on my layout.
Ahhh...another S2 fan!!!
I have two of the MTH Imperials, a 671, 681, the Lionel full scale 18010, and the newest Lionel full scale 38028 with wireless tether. LOL...if I put all of them on the track, the table would collapse!!!
Wow...Well, if PRR could have worked out the bugs a little sooner you could be modeling a "what if" period in the Pennsy's history. Just think if they would have had several of those turbines in service. I love the sound on my unit. Instead of chuffing, it just "whoooshes." The fireman even comments on it during the proto-sound sequence. It at least reminds me of my youth...
"I was'nt misinformed I saw it and used it in person !"
I've not been saying it doesn't work, but rather that it doesn't work the way you claim it works (hence the misinformation or misunderstanding), or to the degree you say it works. DCS is not a functional system for operating TMCC locos in command mode without the TMCC combination of the cab-1 and command base. More to the point, the Z4000 has absolutely zero capability of or involvement in DCS controlling TMCC locos in command mode. The Z4000 is irrelevant to that issue. If you want to believe otherwise, or your dealer wishes to tell people otherwise, there's nothing I can do, obviously, except continue to point out the errors.
For the same amount you get worlds beyond on technology from MTH " SORRY THAT IS A FACT ! " .
With all due respect, that's an opinion, not a fact. Many quite knowledgeable and experienced hobbiests find the ZW/TMCC combination more flexible, powerful and, most importantly, easy to implement and reliable than the Z4000/DCS combination. Even some DCS users prefer to use Lionel Powerhouses instead of a Z4000 because for command control use, they are much better value per watt of power.
"The tmcc plugged in with the cable directly to the new Z-4000 . I stated the zw has no such option ."
You sound quite firm in your opinions but I'm afraid you are 100% wrong. TMCC does not plug into the Z4000 in any way, shape or form. The TMCC command base is properly connected to the outside rail of any three rail track, whatever your power source: Z4000, ZW or 1033. Thus your claim that the Z4000 has an input for the TMCC command base and the ZW does not merely indicates that you are not familiar enough with either system in sufficient detail to be giving others advice on the subject. Sorry if you find that rude, but it's the God's honest truth based upon 10 years of working with TMCC and 4 with DCS.
Bottom line is that either the Z4000 or ZW will meet most people's needs, and you cannot go wrong with either. Each has specific strengths or qualities that may appeal to each individual's situation. To claim that one is far beyond the other is nonsense, in my opinion. It may be so for one person's needs, but for another the exact opposite may be true.
"If you're not going to run a huge layout and bucu engines it's the way to go ..."
If you're not going to run many MTH PS2 locos in command mode, you don't need either DCS or the Z4000 and can save lots of money :).
And if you consider a transformer having a fan a good thing, and advanced design, perhaps you'll note computer makers have struggled for years and finally eliminated fans from virtually all computers. It's called good design. One less thing to make noise or fail.
The Z4000 only has advanced features for operating PS1 and PS2 locos in conventional mode. The ZW has those same features as it turns out. The two transformers are virtually identical except the Z4000 is huge, heavy and a single footprint and the ZW is smaller and lighter, but requires separate power supplies. The Z4000 does not have accessory outputs that are functionally any different than the extra ZW outputs. The only other differences of note, are not any ideas about sine waves, which are irrelevant, but the built in volt/ammeter in the Z4000 and the capability to use the TMCC cab-1 to remotely control built into the ZW, as well as the capability of having four 180 watt outputs on the ZW versus two on each Z4000.
Enjoy your Z4000 and if you enjoy thinking it's somehow more advanced than a ZW, well there are plenty of other notions out there that I don't agree with :).
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