I was told by an old-timer who fixes postwar transformers that he had someone come in with a bad CW-80. He called Lionel and they sent out a brand new transformer, no questions asked. And they DIDN'T want the old transformer back for repair. Evidently they are considered as disposable as a BIC lighter. This amazed him as he has fixed even the most inexpensive postwar transformers with no problem, So after he received the new CW-80 transformer he took apart the defective one. Or at least, he took the cover off. When he saw what was inside he knew there was nothing he could do with it.
bfskinner: I don't understand what you are saying about power being the only feature of the postwar transformers. Laughter23rd said he had a starter set. So he wouldn't have all the "features" on the train set that would be needed by a high end gizmoed-up locomotive. Postwar transformers had whistle buttons and direction buttons. If he has a bell (doubtful) he can get a bell button. It would seem to me a Lionel LW with 125 watts would provide plenty of power for him and they are available in excellent condition with a repo nox for $85. Even less on E-Bay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-125-WATT-LW-TRANSFORMER-BOXED-LN_W0QQitemZ300378730230QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item45eff7aef6
Virginian Railroad
Deputy I was told by an old-timer who fixes postwar transformers that he had someone come in with a bad CW-80. He called Lionel and they sent out a brand new transformer, no questions asked. And they DIDN'T want the old transformer back for repair. Evidently they are considered as disposable as a BIC lighter. This amazed him as he has fixed even the most inexpensive postwar transformers with no problem, So after he received the new CW-80 transformer he took apart the defective one. Or at least, he took the cover off. When he saw what was inside he knew there was nothing he could do with it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Deputy, if you didn't know that Lionel replaces CW-80's rather then repair them, you just haven't been paying attention. Over the last several years, depending I suppose on who was running Customer Service, Lionel staff have asked for the entire transformer back (rarely) but far mote often the power cord or the orange handle. When I returned one they didn't ask for anything back, but did ask me to cut off the cord and trash the lot. Clearly, what they were trying to do was honor their warranty at the least cost and incomvenience to the operator. -------------------------------------------------------------- bfskinner: I don't understand what you are saying about power being the only feature of the postwar transformers. Laughter23rd said he had a starter set. So he wouldn't have all the "features" on the train set that would be needed by a high end gizmoed-up locomotive. Postwar transformers had whistle buttons and direction buttons. If he has a bell (doubtful) he can get a bell button. It would seem to me a Lionel LW with 125 watts would provide plenty of power for him and they are available in excellent condition with a repo nox for $85. Even less on E-Bay. http://cgi.ebay.com/LIONEL-125-WATT-LW-TRANSFORMER-BOXED-LN_W0QQitemZ300378730230QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item45eff7aef6
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Deputy, if you didn't know that Lionel replaces CW-80's rather then repair them, you just haven't been paying attention. Over the last several years, depending I suppose on who was running Customer Service, Lionel staff have asked for the entire transformer back (rarely) but far mote often the power cord or the orange handle. When I returned one they didn't ask for anything back, but did ask me to cut off the cord and trash the lot. Clearly, what they were trying to do was honor their warranty at the least cost and incomvenience to the operator.
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You, and everyone else, can buy whatever you want. I have six postwar transformers, all of which were bought used, and all of which run perfectly. Part of the reason they run perfectly is that I have re-worked all of them, substituting online fuses for the old slow-acting internal circuit-breakers; replacing copper-oxide whistle rectifiers with modern diodes; installing a new power cord; carefully inspecting the internal insulation and taking a good look-see. They will do just fine for my post-war trains, but if for some reason I want to run modern trains (not fancy stuff, just off-the-shelf traditional Lionel, Williams and MTH with circuit-boards inside, and RailSounds tenders and boxcars, I add fuses, TVS diodes, and a pair of Lionel Sound Activation buttons. Anything I have will now run anything I have. Safely, I believe: as long as the wiring of the layout is adequate, per Bob Nelson's recomendations..
However, for day-to-day operation, I typically use two CW-80's. If I had a G-model, I could get by with just one, but I like to provide auxilliary power to my switches, and because my CW's are the original, non-revised style, having two of them is easier than resorting to the annoying work-around that would be required if I were to use only one. That also gives me a full 5 amps, throttle-to-track.
What's not to understand? Certainly one can get more power. I have two post-war ZW's and a KW. I've got all I need, and then some. Other people may wish to follow their own star.
But the one notion that I will not accept is that the post-war transformers, unprotected by inline fuses, are as safe for the operator, his children, and anything flamable on the layout, as a well-working modern CW-80 with it's fold-back circuit, or an MTH Z-1000 with whatever it has.
If you were a newbie, I'd continue discussing this with you, but you're not, and as far as I'm concerned this is very, very old ground we're plowing. The sun just peeked over the yardarm, and I'm going to have a beer.
-----------------------------------------------------------Well your right on the button about one thing. I haven't and won't be "paying attention" to the CW-80. I've seen enough problems posted by people who had them for me to realize they are junk with a capital "J". I'd use a more descriptive word than jumk, but I don't need to be spanked by the powers-that-be. I wouldn't take a CW-80 as a gift. I'm not into the "disposable commodity" mindset when it comes to trains. The postwar transformers were made BY Americans FOR Americans, The CW-80 was made BY (I think we all know who, since they hold must of our debt markers) for Lionel as a cheap commodity to be sold with low-priced sets. Cheap in price as well as quality. MTH seems to have a better supplier, since they haven't gone through the trials and tribulations that Lionel has with their inexpensive transformers. I can't believe ANYONE would recommend a CW-80 or any other cheap Lionel transformer to someone who has already experienced problems with the cheap Lionel transformers. That's like telling someone who bought a lemon for a car to go out and by the exact same make and mlodel again to "give them another chance". Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. ALL of my postwar transformers have new power cords at the very least. Two of them have a full rework as you describe. But I don't consider ANY of them "unsafe". Safety also lies with the user. I don't depend on ANY mechanical or electrical device to provide me with 100% safety. To do so would only be deceiving youtself. Ever hear of Murphy's Law? Poop happens and it happens a LOT to those who think they are immune to it. You make it sound like postwar transformers are explosive devices that kids shouldn't use. Newsflash...but MILLIONS of kids used those postwar transformers with NO problems. And probably many thousands of them are STILL being used today with NO PROBLEMS. What you have done is change the scenario to prove your point. Laughter23rd never said he has "Railsounds tenders and boxcars". And I don't believe that postwar transformers are unsuitable for modern locos. ANd neither does MTH, since they provide a list of old transformers suitable for use with their trains. Yes, you should run an inline fuse, but I ran modern locos the past couple of years under the tree with postwar transformers and had NO problems with them. I have you beat in having seven PW transformers. All have been rock solid reliable and I have full confidence in all of them. If you have kids that are playing with them and doing unsafe acts, that's not the transformer's problem. That is a parental problem. Funny thing, but most all of us old geezers had PW transformers when we were kids, and by gosh, we are still here!!!!! This may be old ground, but it seems to have been plowed with the wrong plow. BTW...if you can't recommend PW transformers, at least recommend an MTH transformer. Why send the poor guy back to the same source that he had problems with in the first place????
Deputy, you really need to calm down. I'm not going to respond point by point, but I'll hit a few low spots, in no particular order:
1. I recommended an MTH transformer a mere 4 lines prior to the start of your rant;
2. I also said that post-war transformers are all right if they receive a good going over, and if all the modifications that I enumerated were carried out.* I also pointed out that I have several myself;
3. I'd love to see things manufactured in the USA once more -- my son is a barely-employed Industrial and Operations engineer -- but the reality is that almost everything is being built in China. It makes me sick;
4. The revised models of the CW-80 are in no sense of the word like sending folks back to the same experience that zapped them before. I have posted repeatedly that I never recommended any CW-80 until the revised version became available and had proven itself. Furthermore, almost all of my personal "collection" is post-war, and with just a smattering of MPC and modern stuff mixed in. Every stick of it has been purchased since 1969. I much prefer the way we built some of the old stuff.
5. It is not my job to recommend your favorite transformer. That's your job. For my part, I certainly do not want anything to do with TMCC, DCS, Legacy, Vision, and all of that other new-fangled, high-cost, overly complex crap with the 78-page owner's manuals, although I'm the first to admit that it is impressive when it works.
6. Of course the CW-80's are throw-aways. So is your VCR and most of the rest of todays electronics. I used to test radio and TV tubes in my local drugstore. Now I can hardly find drugs in there.
I respectfully suggest that as long as you choose to live in the post-war era, you go back to school and learn to read. Or, you can drive a 1951 Chevrolet with PowerGlide, sit in front of a seven-inch (diagonal measurement) black-and-white TV, and try to work out your problems with a slide-rule. I have done all of those things, and while I'd like to have my youth back, I wouldn't want a whole lot of that other stuff again.
And I still haven't had that beer.
^ I neglected to mention new rollers, where applicable.
.
I don't "live in a post-war era". As a matter of act, the ONLY postwar stuff I own are the transformers (I also own and use a Z-4000) and a few S2 turbine locos. Everything else is modern Lionel, MTH, or Williams. What's a VCR? I own a DVD player and it sure isn't going to be tossed any time soon. I am a dedicated fan of DCS as well as TMCC, although I'm not impressed with Legacy. Too much money to do fancy sounds with a whistle I see no reason to give the CW-80 or any of the other rather enemic transformers Lionel produces a first or second chance. There are simply too many better options including the postwar transformers available to me. As to what I drive, I don't go back to 1951, but I do own a 1972 Corvette with a 454 4-speed and no electronic ANYHTING on it. I'll take that over any of these modern hot rods any day. I suggest we agree to disagree on this subject. We are too firm in our beliefs for either of us to change. And I respect your opinions too much to make you *** off at me. Dep
I well remember you from three years or so ago right here on this forum. You talked out of both sides of your mouth back then too. So, let's agree on this: you go your way, and you go your way.
Let me take a pot shot at the notion of fuses' or fold-back circuits' being better than thermal circuit breakers. If we can agree that the purpose of these current-limiting means is the protection of the transformer and the wiring, then I claim that a thermal circuit breaker does a better job. It embodies a model of the wiring it is protecting. That is, it gets hot as the wiring gets hot; and it trips when the wiring has gotten too hot. It is like a little analog computer that figures out when the transformer and wiring have had enough. It doesn't trip on a momentary overload, since that is not harmful. But the bigger the overload, up to a dead short, the faster it warms up and the sooner it trips. All of this is good, because it doesn't unnecessarily stop the trains, and it doesn't require replacing a fuse every time it does trip.
Now I have often criticized Lionel's practice of (usually) putting a single circuit breaker into a transformer with multiple outputs, whether variable or fixed. This, as Lionel admitted in the KW service manual, doesn't protect anything when any of the outputs get connected together. That's a reason to supplement the single breaker inside the box with individual overcurrent protection on the separate outputs. But that doesn't need to be a fuse; and I have always recommended using appropriate thermal circuit breakers for that purpose also, for the same reasons I gave above.
Bob Nelson
"People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?"
Deputy...but I do own a 1972 Corvette with a 454 4-speed and no electronic ANYHTING on it...
Even my 1972 340 Charger Rallye 4-speed had breakerless electronic ignition... :)
Rob
The most sophisticated electronics in my 1966 Volvo is the turn-signal flasher.
lionelsoni "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?"
Probably not. Check out the history of the world. (Rodney King isn't on my list of favorite. philosophers)..
As for fuses, once I thought that I understood what you have been saying about the differences between protection against over-currents on the one hand and over-voltages on the other, I immediately ran into a heap of opposition from folks on three forums who insisted, and continue to insist, that if you use a fast-blow fuse you will get all the protection you need, for both the transformer and it's associated wiring on the one hand, as well as for any solid-state devices on the other. In the end I concluded that those not easily persuaded would likely not be persuaded at all.
As I have posted many times, I use both fuses and TVS diodes. What I have never admitted is that I don't use fast-blow fuses, for the very reason you suggest: you get too many blown fuses. Slo-blo fuses seem to protect against over-currents, and I don't trust many of the post-war circuit-breakers, even where I have replaced the originals. Also, not needing super-power, I fuse my transformers quite conservatively.
I also go one step further: rather than put my fuses in those opaque on-line fuse-capsules, I prefer to mount mine on the "console" using open-face fuse-holders. That way, when a fuse blows, I almost always see the flash out of the corner of my eye, and even if I don't, the blown fuse is easy to spot and replace. I keep spares handy. To me, the peace of mind is worth the few bucks that they cost.
It's not easy to convince people that, where toy train transformers are concerned, a fast-blow fuse is not necessary, nor even desireable; but that a TVS diode is often essential.
When I cannot persuade someone that he needs TVS protection, I don't dare try to steer him away from fast-blow fuses, since that's all he's going to have. Maybe they'll do some good. To cite your own Holy Writ, they don't provide "much" protection against spikes. This implies that they provide some. I say for those who aren't going to buy a TVS, some protection, even something less than "much," may be better than nothing. And it seems to make them feel good in their beliefs, however unsound they may be. They always have the "it just failed -- for no reason" excuse to fall back on.
Everything that I "know" about TVS protection, and much of what I think I know about fuses, circuit-breakers, etc., comes directly from you Bob Nelson, right here on this forum. Unlike some, I want to know when I didn't get the lesson straight, so by all means correct me whenever I begin to sound like Nancy Pelosi.
Some things that I like about the "fold-back" protective circuitry on the CW-80 is that it warns you when you are approaching an overload, and doesn't simply wait to kick-in when something has already very gone wrong. Also they are auto-resetting and seem, in my personal experience, to be reliable and sufficiently rugged. They don't seem prone to leaving you with your layout "cooking" during a serious overload condition that is less than a full short circuit -- the way a post-war ZW can.
There was a post a year or so ago when a member hung something like 128 lamps on a 1033. The circuit-breaker never tripped, but the transformer case got too hot to touch. That can't be good. I shudder to imagine what an ammeter would have read while this was going on.
I realize that some folks can't tolerate the occasional flickering that the green lamp produces as a result of something as inconsequential as dirty track or wheels. It is my belief that the self-protective circuitry on the CW-80 is pretty good (safe) for a mass-market item. Am I wrong?
With that, I refer you to Dorothy Parkers' famous response when asked to use the word "horticulture" in a sentence.
Edited 01/07/10
I have several BW-80's and they're great for simple Carpet Central applications and smallish layouts. It's also handy in application where you can't get access to the outlet easily; it has a power switch on the brick.
I have both versions of the CW-80. The first I use under the Christmas Tree to run a train around a simple loop. Hour after hour, year after year it has performed flawlessly. The "G" version of the CW-80 is just a great all-around dependable transformer for all small-wattage applications.
Jon
It would seem not. I offered the olive branch and had it shoved up an orifice. So now I employ the "ignore" feature. Works great!
ADCX Rob Deputy...but I do own a 1972 Corvette with a 454 4-speed and no electronic ANYHTING on it... Even my 1972 340 Charger Rallye 4-speed had breakerless electronic ignition... :)
I think the 340 was one of the first engines to get that.
lionelsoni The most sophisticated electronics in my 1966 Volvo is the turn-signal flasher.
Deputy lionelsoni "People, I just want to say, you know, can we all get along? Can we get along?" It would seem not. I offered the olive branch and had it shoved up an orifice. So now I employ the "ignore" feature. Works great!
Ignore, ignore, ignore, and remain ignorant, ignorant, ignorant. When are you going to start?
I'm still looking for answers that are useful to the safe and enjoyable operation of toy trans, old and new. I will take good information wherever I can find it.
DeputyI think the 340 was one of the first engines to get that.
It was the first. 1974 for the rest. I always carried a spare module, ballast resistor, & voltage regulator, and I was good to go.
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