Trains.com

Hallmark Veranda Turbine

911 views
13 replies
1 rating 2 rating 3 rating 4 rating 5 rating
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Wisconsin
  • 2,877 posts
Hallmark Veranda Turbine
Posted by Bob Keller on Sunday, July 16, 2006 9:40 AM
I picked up the new Hallmark/Lionel UP Veranda turbine (and tender) ornaments yesterday. Very nice. Lets hope Hallmark got a license from UP before running it!!!!

Bob Keller

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: The ROMAN Empire State
  • 2,047 posts
Posted by brianel027 on Monday, July 17, 2006 3:09 PM

Sorry Bob, but this is just too tempting. So to mimic your CTT product reviews...

Cons - Greatly reduced pulling power due to lack of motor

Pros - For the first time in ages, Lionel makes a scale proportioned replica that looks too small next to 027 types of products.

Big Smile [:D]

Bob, I think CTT has come a long way in the past few years in editorial content, not that it was ever bad to begin with. At one time, I might have considered it a draw choosing between OGR and CTT for differing reasons, but not anymore.

But when you review smaller products, I don't know why you list the smaller size as a con, like you did with the Williams Alco Postwar reissues. I would imagine most scale folks know as postwar reissues, these are not scale proportioned. I actually consider smaller size a BIG plus, especially in these days where the vast majority of products made are clearly scale proportioned.

If the same standard were applied both ways, then the recent review of the Atlas SD40 would clearly have to state under CONS that the loco is too big to look good with smaller 027 layouts.

Ah, can't please everyone, huh? Big Smile [:D] On the other hand Bob, I'm certain you and the gang at CTT are trying!

brianel, Agent 027

"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Wisconsin
  • 2,877 posts
Posted by Bob Keller on Monday, July 17, 2006 3:37 PM
Hi Brian,
Whenever I writing something like size as a CON, my line of thinking goes back to when I bought the RailKing F3s (before I came to CTT). As nice as they are, they were out of kilter insofar as most of my rolling stock - and I didn't have all that much scale-size gear at the time. So this is more of a flag that they should try to see it before they bought it, just in case.

If you're a subscriber, you can access the 300+ reviews we've uploaded and make additional comments - such as your view on size - and if it gets through my personal review (boooohahahahahaha) [oh, if I could see the smiley face menu I'd put a clown face right about here, so people would know I'm joking with the boooohahahahahaha] it'll be there to offer another perspective on the same product.



Bob Keller

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Crystal Lake, IL
  • 8,059 posts
Posted by cnw1995 on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 9:35 AM
Wow, I love Bob's reviews. I have to find this section - or rather all the priviledges and benefits that go with subscribing. I heard the Veranda Turbine was pushed about at the Illinois Railway Museum this past Sunday. What a massive beast.

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

  • Member since
    October 2002
  • From: US
  • 183 posts
Posted by fjerome on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 12:41 PM
i sure wish someone (L!) would do a Lionmaster Veranda!!

mostly i am writing this reply to make sure my rejoining of the new forum is working ok. :)
Fabulous Forrest at the Brewer Avenue & Pacific
  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: The ROMAN Empire State
  • 2,047 posts
Posted by brianel027 on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 1:46 PM

HI Bob, of course I understand that size matters - at least for trains (Boy, that was a quick recovery!). I just know that there are others besides me, who don't view smaller loco size as a con, but a pro. Just wish there was another way of saying it. Like I said, when I read the review of an otherwise nice scale loco, I view the fact it's full scale as a major CON.

That said, just to show I am an Equal Opportunity Wisenheimer (the EOW, the law of the comedian)...

fjerome: on your wish that someone would do a Lionmaster Veranda - let's let Hallmark make that one! Big Smile [:D]

On the serious side, Jerry Calabrese pretty clearly spelled out what the future of Lionel products will be in the last issue of OGR. Of course, words are one thing and actual actions are another. Calabrese isn't the first to realize that the marketing efforts (and product offerings) are one-sided lopsided at best. Various industry people (including others at Lionel) have spoken of what Calabrese did for the past 16 years. The news that the train market and the typical train buying market are lopsided comes as no news. What would be news would be the introduction of more affordable smaller intro products - and some undated ones at that, and not just the same ol' ones that have been in starter sets for the past sevberal decades.

What Lionel needs to do is make some decent products along the lines of the RMT Beep, Buddy and Beef. They have access to the K-Line tooling ,so we'll see if they have the wisdom to bring out some of the more affordable smaller former K-Line products like the Alco and the S-2.

But I'll believe it when I see it. Talk is cheap. What the market really needs are some affordable well made (cheap to use the word very loosely) trains. Lionel could take a lesson from RMT and leave the big steamers to Hallmark for a while.

brianel, Agent 027

"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."

  • Member since
    December 2004
  • From: nomadic--it varies
  • 267 posts
Posted by danrunner on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 1:47 PM
       Brian,

You do make a very good point.  I'm not into scale (although I have the Latest Lionel scale Hudson) because I have a small layout and prefer smaller products.  I love BEEPs, too.  So smaller size is a big plus for me as it is for you.  I also don't believe that as I become more engrossed in model railroading that I'll suddenly want scale everything.  Toy train layouts are awesome and what got me interested in trains, even though scale layouts are beautiful, probably superior, and what my wife is asking me to build (although she likes my tinplate Marx the best--figure that one out).

Anyway, some of us prefer the small stuff and don't want 72" curves (even though I'll probably get at least one loop of it).  So put me in the toy train/non-scale column for preference. 

What's scale with three rails anyway?

Dan
  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Wisconsin
  • 2,877 posts
Posted by Bob Keller on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 2:11 PM
I know that I LOVE this bad boy and ordered the NYC version for myself:

Bob Keller

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Crystal Lake, IL
  • 8,059 posts
Posted by cnw1995 on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 5:21 PM

I reread that Calabrese piece. It looks as if he had his way, Lionel would be more judicious in what it produces for the hobby market and really expand the licensing of sets.

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: The ROMAN Empire State
  • 2,047 posts
Posted by brianel027 on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 7:21 PM

Licensing was just a small part of that article Doug.

The key issues (as I read them) were adressing the reached untapped buyers with affordable products and carefully assessing new products viability and profitability. Scale consumers have been spoiled rotten by the trains companies willingness to produce products from expensive new tooling that can just barely pay for themselves at their given list price point. Blowouts further reduce the profit margins on these new products. Calabrese said no one shouold expect Lionel to contine to produce the vast selection of products that cannot recoup their costs - BUT how this sits with the very vocal minority of this hobby remains to be seen. Remember, it is not the novice with a kid's train layout that corners the execs at YORK.

When I was a kid, my dad wanted to buy a piece of land behind our home as a road was being constructed. He came back furious, saying he wanted to pay for a piece of land, not pay for the road to be constructed. This picture is what is partially wrong with the hobby. Many of the across the board price increases even on basic products, are to help pay for the expense of the higher end more costly products that won't sell if they were realistically priced where they should be.

For example, many want a Centercab switcher made. It's done and made. No more asking, just open your wallet because it's brass and expensive. Now a Centercab if approached along the lines of the RMT BEEP or the Lionel Docksider might very well be a hit. But those compromises will obviously not please the vocal minority.

Calabrese said a lot of things in that article, but I'm not going to believe any of it until I actually see the catalogs and see the products that Lionel needs to make to accomplish his goals. Lionel would do well to remember that many of us chose K-Line years ago over Lionel because it wasn't scale, it was well made and far more affordably priced over Lionel equal products. And it was the foolish headfirst dive into the scale side of the arena that put K-Line out of business. K-Line simply put, forgot their early loyal customers.

If Calabrese and Lionel cannot figure this out (and the jury is still out whether they can.... meanwhile Neil Young is up in the hills working on the next unaffordable advancement in TMCC), Walter Matuch and RMT already have figured it out and the verdict is in. RMT is the best thing to happen in this hobby in the past 5 years. Bob's photo above (along with the other enthusiastic comments elsewhere) speaks eons of this.

If the foolishness of this hobby can be summed up in one sentence, it's that after 10 years, the digital control users in this hobby still number under 30% and yet this is the main thrust of the manufacturers efforts - along with scale products that end up as major blowouts inorder to sell.

The big large engines are best left as Hallmark ornaments until the market is healthy enough for the intoductions of these products to completely on their own, recoup their investement/development/tooling costs.

brianel, Agent 027

"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Kaukauna WI
  • 2,115 posts
Posted by 3railguy on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 8:54 PM

It seems that your typical serious train buyer would rather buy one scale diesel for $400 with all the bells and whistles verses four 027 diesels for $100 each. Both Lionel and Atlas have come out with  scale conventional engines in the $200 range such as the Lionel SD-40T-2 and Trainman RSD-5. Both are nice engines. Many people prefer scale because they are railfans and want their equipment to look right.

John Long Give me Magnetraction or give me Death.
  • Member since
    January 2005
  • From: New England
  • 6,241 posts
Posted by Jumijo on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 7:40 AM
It will be interesting to see what is in the next Lionel catalog. Calabrese has stated that lower-priced items are going to be emphasized, but then says they are putting TMCC II in a newly tooled scale Bigboy.

There's plenty of affordable products on the secondary market for me. And other companies like RMT and Williams also cater to my crowd.

Jim

Modeling the Baltimore waterfront in HO scale

  • Member since
    November 2003
  • From: The ROMAN Empire State
  • 2,047 posts
Posted by brianel027 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 8:06 AM

No doubt that the typical scale modeler probably would like one nicer loco versus several comprosmised ones, true. But this begs the question, is the typical scale 3-rail modeler the typical (and majority) train customer? And everything I read and hear says no. I haven't been to YORK in a while but I have had reps from the 3 major companies all tell me that the scale buyer is not the clear majority customer, although they may enthusiastically spend more dollars. Just as even Lionel 's own statements have indicated that the numbers of modelers fully using digital control is very disappointing given the length of time the systems have been available.

And now again, I'll point to the BEEP. Why is this product so successful then? It's not really scale, because it's not really prototype. The detail level, though adequate, is certainly below par compared to many other products, and yet the BEEP has done tremendously well. I dare say there are a majority of train buyers who actually would rather have several more affordable engines in their favorite road names, that just one very nice, expensive loco. Even some of the more "serious" buyers have found the BEEP to be easily improved and ungraded.

Now that sounds like a winning product... one that appeals to everyone!!!

I remember going to a state fair some years back and having a laugh watching this young ego filled guy spend nearly $100.00 on some shooting game trying to win his girl some stuffed bear. This scenario reminds me so much of the train business today from an industry standpoint: foolish, not practical, financially ill-advised and full of self-importance. I mean this guy I watched could have easily bought the same cheap bear at a fraction of the cost. He could have bought a top notch quality stuffed bear and still have lots leftover for a very nice dinner. I remember when the guy exclaimed "I can't believe I just spent $100 to win this bear!" I doubt that girl stayed with him very long either... he may have won the game, but it wasn't very practical was it? Remind anyone of all these train lawsuits?? Maybe that guy runs a train company today? Big Smile [:D]

I'm not anti-scale... I'm just pro-common sense. How many times have you heard something like "That MTH loco is nice, but I'll wait for Lionel to make it." Repeat that phrase several times, substituting all the other companies and you'll have the answer as to why every company offers so much duplication of the same products. Once again, I'm reminded of the guy at the fair with his immediate short-term victory.

And although there are blowouts on all kinds of train products, I do not see the quantity and deep blowouts to lesser expensive beginner items as I do the premiere types. Dealers tell me they don't have to reduce prices on beginner items as they tend to sell on their own. When I was looking for the Lionel Conrail U36B a few years ago, hopefully as a blowout because of the single motor, I was told not to expect it.... the the engine was selling very well because it was the first low-end Conrail separate diesel in many years... it never did become a blowout. Charlie Ro had it for $90, but that's hardly a blowout.

I just think there's a lot of foolhearty thinking going on at some of the train companies. I'm sure K-Line thought "they could impress the girl" but as we all know now, they couldn't afford it. They won the battle but lost the war.

Ironically probably the best thing K-Line introduced in the past few years wasn't scale anything... it was the redesigned 027 swithch and their new SuperStreets. Too bad their focus wasn more heavily on these kinds of products. SuperStreets is a loss for the hobby... their scale stuff really isn't aside from some of the die-cast cars and their full-length passenger cars.

So I wholheartedly disagree and I think the largest segment of buyers wants more affordable, more practical trains. And when the Lionel-MTH lawsuit finally becomes old news, maybe the only companies left standing will be Williams, RMT and Atlas... and even Atlas has recognized the significance of the 027 market.

brianel, Agent 027

"Praise the Lord. I may not have everything I desire, but the Lord has come through for what I need."

  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Crystal Lake, IL
  • 8,059 posts
Posted by cnw1995 on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:01 AM
Going back to the Lionel strategy thing... I am intrigued by Jerry's seeming intent to expand the potential market by reaching out to potential customers / collectors who didn't care about trains per se but were interested in purchasing sets logo'd in their area of interest like NASCAR, as well as expanding the selling sets at a premium (to us) in higher-end retailers, like '2nd story department stores' (Hechts, etc.)... creating opportunities for more of an impulse buy from a customer who might recognize the Lionel name as meaning something... I got the impression these sets weren't necessarily going to be more affordable or playable - just solid in his definition of quality.  I do not mean to imply that he intends to ignore hobbyists but seems to properly see us as a closed-end part of the market.  And bringing this thread full-circle, how about his commitment to Christmas-themed items....

Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.

Join our Community!

Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.

Search the Community

FREE EMAIL NEWSLETTER

Get the Classic Toy Trains newsletter delivered to your inbox twice a month