Layout Wiring and TMCC

[cheech]

I have posted a new thread, but I am referring to my original threads of Oct and Nov.

First, a happy and healthy new year to all. I especially wan to thank, Leonard, Dale, Bob and Dennis for the help they gave me in my 'wiring adventure'. Paraphrasing the Cadillac ads, these aren't the Lionel power supplies of my youth!

With the help of your advice, I have installed:

1. a Track Power Bus [barrier blocks, 12g wire, black common throughout and 10 other colors to give me 10 power districts] powered by two ZW 275 [A/D on each] 3 180W powerhouses. Each district has a 10 amp in-line fuse between the power source to the first barrier block. All the powering equipment (ZW or powerhouse) has been phased and is connected thru a power-strip. All the districts are center rail only isolated.
2. an Accessory power bus [separate common] and powered by a ZW 275 [A/B throttle]
3. a Switch power bus [separate common] and powered by the same accessory ZW 275 [C/D throttle]
4. BPC and TPC
- I have [almost] wired 3 BPC controllers:
(a) for four districts, powered by the A/D on two ZW275s thru 2 400W TPCs. Basically my four mainline
loops, using the track power bus.
(b) for four districts, powered by 2 180W powerhouses thru 2 300W TPCs. This is the yards with transfer tables
and turntables using the track power bus.
(c) four two districts, powered by 1 180W powerhouse thru 1 300W TPC. This is for some low activity
sidings and yards using the track power bus.
- I plan to place all of these devices, except for the ZWs on a panel, under the table

Questions: will the fusing I installed work or should I go with a 6-14178 power lockon for the powermaster connection?
I have been unable to obtain "36 volt Bi-directional zener diodes" and I am not sure what it does. can someone
me some further guidance on this item?

5. TMCC. I have thought thru how I plan to use this great feature, but the info isn't centralized, so what I say following is more my piecing together from the variety of instruction sheets and the on-line tutorial. I welcome corrections to my understanding.
- I will use 5 OTC units to control 6 operating tracks and 4 uncouple tracks....I plan to use a mix of new/old versions of these tracks.
- I will use 5 AMC units to control interactively certain accessories [like gantry crane and with some luck, the intermodal crane among
others with multiple motors].
- I will use 5 ASC units to control single motor accessories [like the sawmil].
- I will use 14 ASC units to control switches [ mostly dz1000 motors but some Lionel].
- all of these items will get power from the Accessory or Switch bus and affixed to a panel located under the table.
6. Lights, mainline signals, etc will be powered with the Accessory bus and use 153IR controllers. I plan to use the method I saw in
forum installing the 'electronics' under the table and just having the 'eye' in the shed adjacent to the track.

Questions: Is it ok to place these devices out of site of the CAB-1? The instruction sheets don't list maximums, does anyone know of any maximum number of items that can be daisy-chained? I plan on using multiple CAB-1 devices. Are there issues? is changing the crystal as simple as it is written?

7. The assignment of ID's seems critical, for sanity among other reasons. I plan to not use 0, 98 or 99
Under each category I plan on using the following:
TR - 01 thru 09 for powerhouse
10 thru 30 for Train Lashups
40 thru 50 for TPC and Block IDs --seems to be a limit of 9 of these devices
RTE - planning on 10 thru 20

ENG - 80 thru 90 for Self powered units
60 thru 75 for Diesels
40 thru 55 for Steam
20 thru 35 for Electric
01 thru 15 for Accessory Motor Controllers

ACC - 01 thru 09 for BPC controllers
10 thru 19 for Uncoupler tracks
20 thru 29 for Operating tracks
30 thru 60 for Accessories
70 thru 90 for lighting, if I later decide to connect them this way

SW 01 thru 09 Passenger Line 1
10 thru 19 Freight Line 1
20 thru 29 Passenger Line 2
30 thru 39 Freight Line 2
40 thru 49 Yard 1
50 thru 59 Yard 2
60 thru 69 Yard 3
these ID assignments are all tentative at this writing.

Questions: Are there other numbers I should stay away from?

Ralph

[wrmcclellan]

cheech,

Good writeup of your configuration. There are a few areas I will comment on.

1. Don't know what the 36 v Zeners are for. A Zener diode is a voltage clamping device. It needs a ballast resistor to feed it from the voltage source to absorb excess voltage when the source voltage rises above 36 volts (and the output voltage stays clamped at 36 volts). If this was intended as a protection device for overvoltage spikes to the layout, it is not effective for transients and 36 volts is too high anyway.

2. You can put your TMCC controllers anywhere you wish, so under the layout is OK. For a typical layout you should not have any issues daisy-chaining the wired TMCC command lines.

3. You have some TMCC addressing problems that the manual does not illuminate.

The TR command can only address 9 devices (either trains or PHs/TPCs). If you look at the details on page 38 of the Lionel TMCC "complete guide to command control" (which is not very complete) you will see that the TR command only has 4 bits assigned to addressing. This means a theoretical maximum number of 16 addresses (0 to 15). "0" is reserved (TR command reset - see page 26 - or to remove a loco from the lashup - see page 25). IDs 1 through 9 can be used for PHs/TPCs or TRAINS. I do not know what Lionel did with IDs 11 through 15 but they are not recognized in TMCC.

The RTE command address field is only 5 bits for a theoretical maximum range of 0 through 31 or 32 addresses. I have not experimented with this command, but I would assume that 0 is reserved and that the upper limit is similar to the TR command. You will have to play with this to see what range of addresses are available.

Your fusing will work, but I recommend that you go to Scott''s Odds and Ends and purchase their 10 amp fast acting circuit breakers. These are excellent devices and well worth the investment.

BTW - you may wi***o consider their surge supressors also. For the significant investment you have made so far, I highly recommend you use the breakers and surge protectors.

http://www.scottsodds-n-ends.com/products.htm

Nice job.

Regards,
Roy

[Buckeye Riveter]

I would suggest you use the first two digits from the engine number board for the engine numbers or else it can get real exciting real fast when they are running on your layout.

For example: If you visted my layout and I handed you the CAB-1 you could run engine no. 10. pictured below very easily.

[Anonymous]

Greetings all and Happy New Year!

A TMCC question from a newbie...

I am planning an all-command-control (no conventional locos), large layout (20' x 24').

I am wondering:

1) if dividing the layout into blocks is completely necessary or desirable;

2) is there any way to connect a 180 watt Powerhouse directly to the track without using a $40 tmcc direct lockon or must I cut off Lionel's proprietary connector? I would prefer to solder hot/common wires to Fastrack tabs;

3) can/should Fastrack O-36 and O-72 switches be powered from the constant 18V track or separately

I desire to run multiple standard O locos simultaneously with an average length of 6' freight and passenger trains, so I plan to use no more than 8 Powerhouses. I assume that even if I must use tmcc direct lockons I can still space them evenly across the layout and provide good power distro with no drops.

I am happy for any feedback.

Thanks!

[wrmcclellan]

rdt,

1. Yes. If you have a short or other problem with the track, it is extremely helpful if you have blocks (using insulating pins or track sections on the center rail) that you can cut a section loose from the rest of the layout. Otherwise it can be extremely frustrating to track down a problem in a large layout.

2. Yes you can if you wish. There is a basic cicuit breaker in the PH. The lockon provides some additional short circuit protection. I highly recommed the 10 ampere circuit breakers from Scott's Odds and Ends.

3. If you are never ever (never is a big assumption) going to run conventional, you can power the Fastrack switches from the track power. You may notice some minor power glitches when a switch is thrown. I recommend you provide separate power to the switches. This will also aid in troubleshooting (having the switch power isolated from the track power).

4. This goes with #1 above. Having isolated sections and "power districts" is a very good idea, particularly if you are planning on running multiple trains on the same loop. This distributes the power and lightens the load on the PHs.

5. You should consider having any sidings that will store locos be switched so you can kill the power when you are not using that train or loco. A bunch of powered locos (with lights on) can draw significant energy that cannot be used for those trains that are running.

6. You will need to make sure all your PHs are properly phased together. A quick check is to place a light bulb from one center rail to the other across an insulating gap between two power districts. Assuming all the PHs are properly phased and putting out 18 vac, the bulb will light if they are out of phase and will not light if they are in phase. You want to check this regardless if all PHs are plugged into the same outlet strip. Errors are sometimes made on internal wiring.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

If you use TPC's you can assign these engine numbers and leave the low TR's for lashps. (e.g. assign the TPC's eng 99, 98, 97, 96). These are then controlled as ENG's. When you throttle up you just increase track voltage. Most of the other ENG commands are meaningless/harmless.

You can access TR 10-15 via a computer interface. The issue with these "numbers" is not the command base/TMCC per se but the way the CAB-1 handles TR addresses.

[RRCharlie]

I am using ID's 11-19 for locomotives with no problem.

[Anonymous]

ENG's can be addressed up to 99 (These could go a little higher (127) except for limitations within the CAB-1.

[wrmcclellan]

RR Charlie,

I only commented on ID limitations for the TR and RTE functions. ACC, ENG, and SW all go to 99.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Questions: will the fusing I installed work or should I go with a 6-14178 power lockon for the powermaster connection?
I have been unable to obtain "36 volt Bi-directional zener diodes" and I am not sure what it does. can someone
me some further guidance on this item?

The part number is 1.5KE36CA or 1v5KE36CA. This is a bidirectional transient voltage suppressor and is good for clamping voltage spikes. This particular diode has a minimum breakdown voltage of 34.2V (corresponds to 24V rms AC) and a maximum clamping voltage of 50V at 30A. This is a good choice for most transformers (up to 23V output). If you are using a fixed 18V brick, you could use a 1.5KE33CA. Likewise, if your transformer can exceed 23V output, you should use a 1.5KE39CA for up to 25V .

The parts are available from:
http://www.alliedelec.com/
http://www.digikey.com/
http://www.mouser.com/
http://www.newark.com/
Currently, Allied has the best price on the 1.5KE36CA.

QUOTE: 1. Don't know what the 36 v Zeners are for. A Zener diode is a voltage clamping device. It needs a ballast resistor to feed it from the voltage source to absorb excess voltage when the source voltage rises above 36 volts (and the output voltage stays clamped at 36 volts). If this was intended as a protection device for overvoltage spikes to the layout, it is not effective for transients and 36 volts is too high anyway.

Roy, you are forgetting that the peak of a sine wave is 1.414 times the RMS of the sine wave. The TVS or zener clamping voltage must be greater than the peak voltage of the sine wave or else it will draw excessive power and burn out (no ballast resistor is used in this application). TVSs are very effective for clamping damaging voltage spikes.

Daniel Lang

[wrmcclellan]

Daniel,

You are right. I forgot about the AC peak.

Regards,
Roy

[cheech]

Roy/Daniel thanks for your good advice here. Keep in mind i am stumbling thru this so each reply expands my knowledge base. I hope you feel ok to answer the next set of questions and i hope they are not too basic. This is an additonal $500 investment for safety and protection and i'd like to get it close to right. Any help is appreciated.

I went to scotts odd and ends and read their very helpful FAQ and when coupled with your guidance and my layout complications, this is what i come up with in terms of installing protection.

1. Attach a 10g wire to the ground screw in the Wall outlet to provide a ground connection. i plan to run this wire to a screw post on the barrier blocks to get it around the layout to where the track power equipment will be located....electrically sound??

2. Into the wall outlet is a Surge Protector Strip and the Command Base (via an extension cord to get power to where the base will be located under the layout)

3. Into the power strip will be the phased ZW Transformers and 180W PowerHouse(s) as described in the Jan 2 post.

4a. For the ZW transformers connections, from the transformer, i will wire a DTKplus Surge Protector, with a 10A in-line fuse block, followed by the Diode. One DTKplus will service up to 4 power sources per unit and includes a 4 fuse block. Are the fuse and the diode redundant?

====>ZW Transformer ===>DTKplus Surge Protector ====> Fuse ===> Diode===>track

4b. Scotts odds and ends site indicates that a DTK-z and a fuse after the TPC as well. Again 4 TPCs per unit .....

====>ZW Transformer ===>DTKplus Surge Protector ====> Fuse ===> Diode===>Track
====>TPC===>DTKz==>Fuse===>Track

Is this overkill on both sides? Do I switch to the DTKz for the output side of the TPC? If i do this, does the DTKz come before or after the BPC?

4c. For the PowerHouse(s) connections, i will wire a DTKplus Surge Protector the same way just substituting the PowerHouse for the ZW in the above configuration.

am i close to correct?

thanks in advance
ralph

[marxalot]

1. Attach a 10g wire to the ground screw in the Wall outlet to provide a ground connection. i plan to run this wire to a screw post on the barrier blocks to get it around the layout to where the track power equipment will be located....electrically sound??


I do not think this is such a good idea. If you are referring to the screw on the faceplate of the receptacle, that is really not the function of the screw. If you are talking about removing the receptacle faceplate to get at the ground screw on the receptacle itself, you are not suppose to do that. We should be able to install and operate our trains without accessing the house wiring grounds at receptacles unless this is done through a listed cord connection plugged into the receptacle. The power supply's themselves should provide the proper ground reference................ I think.


Jim