Preserved New York Central Steam

[081552]

Do any of you have any ideas why more NYC Steam Locomotives weren't preserved? The Pennsylvania, B&O, and Santa Fe had historical collections that ended up in museums. I think there are only 2 or 3 NYC locomotives left (Elkhart, IN, Museum of Transport).

 

[SSW9389]

And the answer is Al Perlman, there aren't very many Rio Grande standard guage steam locomotives around either. Those big heavy pieces of steel were worth money when they were scrapped out. And that money went back into the property.   

[Lost World]

Could be worse.  A lot of roads didn't spare even a single steam locomotive.

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

Even PRR and B&O with their "collections" don't have MANY engines I would be interested in: as for PRR there wasn't saved one single duplex, and for B&O: no EM-1, no 2-8-8-0, no T-3 or T-4 Mountain, no Big Six, No one of those interesting experimental engines. But lots of old 19th century crap...

[J. Edgar]

But lots of old 19th century crap...

 

 i dont mean to sound judgemental.....but....if it wasnt for the forefathers of railroading we would all be watching trucks and barges.....the archaic crap from the 19th century gave us what we have today.......you ill never see were your going untill youve looked where youve been

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

But lots of old 19th century crap...

 

 i dont mean to sound judgemental.....but....if it wasnt for the forefathers of railroading we would all be watching trucks and barges.....the archaic crap from the 19th century gave us what we have today.......you ill never see were your going untill youve looked where youve been

 

Of course you are right. Please excuse my harsh words, I am even thankful that those old pieces have been saved. My words simply show that I am very angry that so many of the technically refined engines of the late steam era have NOT been preserved. Nothing than a few photos or movie clips. The Smithsonian Institute tried to save ONLY ONE of those magnificent NYC Niagaras - without success, it was not allowed to pay the scrap value (or even more?) to NYC for it. This is only one of many examples of efforts to save some real interesting pieces, which failed.

[J. Edgar]

 no problem here......i too feel disgruntled about the lack of foresight on some 1950's railroad chiefs....perlmen is a good example....the list is endless of noteworthy steam locomotives from both the 20th and 19th centuries that shoulda coulda wished they where saved.....i just have a personal endearment to the early Railroaders....sometimes it seems like its a piece of the industry's history that is as important and interesting as it is forgotten

[espeefoamer]

 No New Haven steam locos have been preserved.

[UP 829]

Sometimes it helps to look beneath the skin and use a little imagination. Although no Niagra's were saved, Milw 261 and UP 844 are close cousins, all Alco products. Other Alco Northerns ordered and built during the war were similar designs, as were the Challengers. There were no USRA locos designs for WWII, but I suspect railroads needing power and seeing diesels post war, were willing to go with existing designs from the builders that worked, rather than designing from the rail up. As one of the last and most evolved, saving a Niagra would have been worthwhile, though my choice if I could only save one would be a Dreyfuss Hudson.

[tomikawaTT]

Even PRR and B&O with their "collections" don't have MANY engines I would be interested in: as for PRR there wasn't saved one single duplex, and for B&O: no EM-1, no 2-8-8-0, no T-3 or T-4 Mountain, no Big Six, No one of those interesting experimental engines. But lots of old 19th century crap...

The B&O had set two EM-1's aside, but a new young eager beaver spotted them, saw dollar signs on the bottom of his division balance sheet and sent them to scrap.  When senior management found out, it was too late to save anything - including young beaver's career.  He was fired.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

The B&O had set two EM-1's aside, but a new young eager beaver spotted them, saw dollar signs on the bottom of his division balance sheet and sent them to scrap.  When senior management found out, it was too late to save anything - including young beaver's career.  He was fired.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

 

This is new to me, and the story is a tragedy. Another one out of so many tragedys of intended but failed savings. Something similar I have heard of the last two N&W Y-6bs - they were with us as late as 1976!

[scottychaos]

actually, IMO there is a large amount of NYC steam preserved!

compared to some other eastern roads:

LV (none)

Erie (none)

DL&W (2)

etc..

There are a total of 8 NYC steamers surviving, yeah..not a lot when compared to the massive NYC steam fleet, but its better than nothing!

13 NYC steamers if you also count subsidiaries and predecessor roads:

 http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/NewYorkCentral/index.htm

there are 13 surviving PRR steam engines.

Scot

 

[DMUinCT]

True about the New Haven!

The "It Happend To Jane" movie star locomotive (Mikado) was offered for the taking to State Fairs and Museums in 1959 --- No takers.

Penn Central offered the last EP-5 Electric to CT Tourest railroads for the scrap value.  The could not raise the money.  (lot of copper in an electric locomotive)

I think it would not be the same today.

[M636C]

 

My understanding is that L3A 3001 was only preserved because it was purchased to replace a Texas and Pacific locomotive which had been damaged (by vandalism?) at the Dallas State Fair grounds.

It is a very good example of NYC power as an example of a locomotive used for both passenger and freight traffic. It is almost identical in overall dimensions to the Hudson type and was used to replace the Hudsons on heavy trains during WWII (although the L4 with 72" drivers would have been used on the fastest trains, of course).

There were more Mohawks (even only considering the L3 and L4 series used for passenger traffic) than Niagaras, and they served for longer, and their appearance was more typical of late NYC power, (if not the last built).

M636C

[Kurn]

A rumor I've heard over the years is that there is an Erie heavy Pacific preserved in South Korea.

[nanaimo73]

Should Perlman take most of the blame for the lack of preserved NYC steam ?

He came on board during 1954, and wasn't the NYC almost finished dieselizing by then ?

[Lost World]

A rumor I've heard over the years is that there is an Erie heavy Pacific preserved in South Korea.

And who spun you that one?  Would be nice if it were true, of course...

[scottychaos]

A rumor I've heard over the years is that there is an Erie heavy Pacific preserved in South Korea.

And who spun you that one?  Would be nice if it were true, of course...

 

that rumour has been around forever..and has some basis in fact.

some Erie locos DID go to South Korea in the 1950's...so if one them wasnt scrapped, and still existed today, then the rumour would be true! ;)

 but people have looked for it in recent times..there has been no sign of an Erie pacific in Korea since..well since probably the 1950's..

 its 99% likely it is long scrapped...

Scot 

 

[MilwaukeeRoad]

What about MILW steam..?

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

Should Perlman take most of the blame for the lack of preserved NYC steam ?

He came on board during 1954, and wasn't the NYC almost finished dieselizing by then ?

 

I think yes! Even if dieselization was almost completed (which I don't believe - I guess they were about half the way) - in 1954 ALL of the Niagaras were in existence, even in service, and MOST of the Hudsons and Mohawks! Yes I know two of the latter have been saved - but these are the ONLY modern NYC engines still with us. And these are not the most interesting and newest of their wheel arrangement. Of the most evolved latest L-3 and L-4 engines none has survived. Arnold Haas tried to interest Perlman to save at least one engine of the modern classes in several visits - without success. It was PERLMAN who had the easy chance, but did not want to save engines.

[JanOlov]

Let's hope that the next BIG lottery win goes to a railfan. I know that I would put some serious money into building some missing steamers, believe you me. The question is though, who could do it and is the blueprints still with us to be used?

Milwaukee Road class A and F-7 would the first that I'd bring back from the dead. How much would a locomotive like this cost to build new today you think??

[MilwaukeeRoad]

Nice avatar..Anyways, around 150,000$ roughly is to buy a working F-unit if you look on the web. But if we rebuilt one, I would have to say 75,000$.

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

From idea to a useable and operating engine I would say no less than $3 million. Even with all the necessary blueprints I would say this would need a considerable amount of research work.

And the question is if it is AT ALL possible to build a 100% identical engine like those from decades ago. And if it is, next question is if it is AT ALL sensible to do so. A knowledgeable person (regularly having to do with steamers) told me that we don't have a plant being able to cast engine frames. Here for example it would probably be cost effective to use a welded contruction instead.

I think if one day somebody will decide to do such a risky experiment, that he should build an engine as modern as possible - looking as close as possible like its original prototype. BTW, the PRR S1 would get my vote at first.

But I don't think this will ever happen. One or perhaps two more generations - and the interest in steam engines (perhaps aside from models) will be lost...

[J. Edgar]

From idea to a useable and operating engine I would say no less than $3 million. Even with all the necessary blueprints I would say this would need a considerable amount of research work.

And the question is if it is AT ALL possible to build a 100% identical engine like those from decades ago. And if it is, next question is if it is AT ALL sensible to do so. A knowledgeable person (regularly having to do with steamers) told me that we don't have a plant being able to cast engine frames. Here for example it would probably be cost effective to use a welded contruction instead.

I think if one day somebody will decide to do such a risky experiment, that he should build an engine as modern as possible - looking as close as possible like its original prototype. BTW, the PRR S1 would get my vote at first.

But I don't think this will ever happen. One or perhaps two more generations - and the interest in steam engines (perhaps aside from models) will be lost...

 having a plant big enough to cast an engine bed isnt the problem you think it might be......with enough money any forge or casting company would be willing to cast whatever you wanted..given the blueprints and plan drawings machining would be the same....money does almost anything.....and i agree with modernizing the steam locomotive....propane fired condensing multi-cylindered highhorse powered streamlined whatchacallit......or a pennsy T-1

[daveklepper]

Aren't the two steamers at Prometory replicas?   Doesn't that show it CAN be done?

Modernization need not change character.   Look at what Grand Canyon is doing!

[M636C]

Should Perlman take most of the blame for the lack of preserved NYC steam ?

He came on board during 1954, and wasn't the NYC almost finished dieselizing by then ?

 

I think yes! Even if dieselization was almost completed (which I don't believe - I guess they were about half the way) - in 1954 ALL of the Niagaras were in existence, even in service, and MOST of the Hudsons and Mohawks! Yes I know two of the latter have been saved - but these are the ONLY modern NYC engines still with us. And these are not the most interesting and newest of their wheel arrangement. Of the most evolved latest L-3 and L-4 engines none has survived. Arnold Haas tried to interest Perlman to save at least one engine of the modern classes in several visits - without success. It was PERLMAN who had the easy chance, but did not want to save engines.

When I last looked, 3001 was an L3a.

M636C

[JanOlov]

Would it be possible to have the frame casted in eastern europe, or China since they built steamers long after the US had completely deiselized? Which was the biggest frame ever casted in the US, and is welding that advanced and strong today that it could work for large steamlocomotive as NYC Niagara for example? Could you use the ship building industry?

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

Would it be possible to have the frame casted in eastern europe, or China since they built steamers long after the US had completely deiselized?

Probably not because no foundry outside the US ever casted steam locomotive frames, or even loco frames in general. The ship building industry MAY be able to fill that gap. Other than that there are steam locomotive shops in Europe being able to build what you want.

Which was the biggest frame ever casted in the US, and is welding that advanced and strong today that it could work for large steamlocomotive as NYC Niagara for example?

The largest locomotive frame ever was that of the incredible PRR S1 6-4-4-6 duplex. Welding has experienced great improvements since decades, but concerning strenght of a construction a complex casting will never be equalled I think. But keep in mind that a steamer today is used only ocasionally and not 1000 miles a day - for the case of the Niagara. So a welded frame may provide sufficent strenght.

[JanOlov]

Thanks for the info....

[VAPEURCHAPELON]

One more thing comes to mind regarding the frame: even David Wardale would prefer the monobloc type (=casting) for his new 5AT. Only if this is not possible to get he would go with a very strong welded box contruction.

Let's hope that this project will come to reality one day.