The South Wind remained as a through train in my memory almost up to the Penn Central merger. I rode it Chicago Jacksonville in its last days as a through train, and it lost a lot of time between Chicago and Louisville because of bad track and slow orders on the PRR. At the time it was an every-other-day train, with the Flagler having been discontinued. The consist was mixed, I think even one blue car, some Tuscan red and some stainless. Unsure about the power, but I think PRR E-7sor E-8s. The IC's City of Miami was all around a better train with better on-time performance. The through service was discontinued about a month after I rode the Southwind.
I also fondly remember travelling with the family to Florida and back during spring break in 1957. While only 8 yrs old at the time, I can still remember portions of the trip. I remember there were 3 units(PRR) and 17 cars. There were quite a few pullmans at this time of year. I rember sipping a coke in luxurious observation car and enjoying the never heard of until then coffee ice cream in the diner. The pullman car that had connecting rooms(family of 6) was quite nice and was a Budd, ribbed stainless car painted in Tuscan red. I also remember racing along from Waycross to Jacksonville passing cars on US 1 like they were standing still. I really wish there was such a train today.
I did not find any answer to your mystery trackage question. But I do have an idea, go on the internet and look for David H. Steinberg books, and see if you can find out anything. He is a guy who grew up in Chattanooga (lives in NYC now,I think) and knew a lot about things from years ago --local rails and buses as well as long distance. He just might know what you are asking about.
No need to refer to me since he does not know me personally even though we have said "hello" a time or two through the years.
Some thoughts---
I will try to look up the track you are talking about, hopefully I can find something.
You mention Sherwood. My father and sister had some not-as-fond memories....they were stuck there one day for nine hours due to a frieght wreck up the lime. This would be mid-40's.
I was born in Chattanooga in 1944 ,moved to Atlanta 30 years ago.
IACL took over ABC in the early 40's after the Flagler had been in operation about 3 years.
In earlier years the Dxie Flyer and the Dixie Limited ran on C&G but by late 40's or very early 50's the Flyer transferred over to the ACL (ex-AB&C). Thd Dixie Limited basically ceased to exist (especially as a through train) at that time due to stiff direct competition from the streamlined Georgian.
Hi Bill,
Ah the Florida Arrow - thanks for refreshing my memory as to that trains name.
Every February from the mid-thirties to the early fifties when my Dad retired we'd drive from Chicagoland down US 41 for a two week family vacation with an aunt and uncle who lived in Bradenton, FL. During WWII Dad saved his gasoline rationing coupons so we could continue to make that trip. Through northern Indiana the highway parallelled the Big Four's secondary line to Cairo, IL. I often saw freight trains but never the lone passenger train on that line, a named local, the Egyptian, which carried a Pullman between Harrisburg, IL and Chi. My interest would pick up when we reached Terre Haute because there were long stretches between there and Evansville where the road ran alongside the C&EI's double track main.
I really got excited when we got in L&N country and picked up the single track main with its semaphore block signals around Madisonville IIRC. I remember Madisonville because of the concrete arches which spanned Hwy 41 both N and S of town proclaming its fame as a tobacco market. At Earlington the highway made a 90 degree jog right at the L&N depot and I could always count on seeing a train there. Once in that vicinity I got the thrill of seeing a "Big Emma" on the point of a manifest freight.
At Nashville US41 ran right by the Tennessee Central station on the banks of the Cumberland River. I'd usually see a tuscan red TC business car complete with brass railed observation platform parked at the station. From there all the way through Chattanooga to Atlanta I'd keep my eyes peeled for glimpses of the NC&StL. I loved the Dixie Lines engines with their distinctive flanged stacks. If I was really lucky I'd see a Yellow Jacket which to my eyes was heaven on earth. My Dad usually gave in to my pleas to take 41W between Nashville and Monteagle because of its proximity to the railroad whereas 41E while shorter, ran some miles to the east and was virtually devoid of any railroad interest. One of my biggest thrills came when I once saw the Cowan-Tracy City mixed train at Monteagle with double headed NC&StL Consolidations on the point. Given the grades and hairpin turns of the highway, I marvelled how that train could make it up Mount Eagle from Cowan. You have probably seen the picture on the NC&StL Preservation Society website of a Consolidation on the stone bridge where that branch crossed over the mainline with a Yellow Jacket emerging from the mouth of the Cumberland Tunnel.
My mother's maiden name was Sherwood and her parents moved from Tennessee to Missouri (east of Springfield on the route of the Frisco's KC-Florida Special) in the 1890's before she was born. On one of our trips we detoured over to Sherwood where the folks spent several hours talking to locals about any kin that might be living in the area. I got to spend a glorious time at the depot watching the parade of Dixie Line trains and helper engines heading up and down the grade to the tunnel. As I recall the helpers were 2-8-0's while the road engines were mountains and Yellow Jackets which had lost their shrouds and became just Yellow Stripes.
One reason I loved Chattanooga was because it was there that I'd almost always get to see trains of the Southern Railway. Since you live or lived there perhaps you can shed some light on a mystery that has haunted me for probably 65 or more years. Heading south US41 passed through a tunnel on the outskirts of the city. Shortly after leaving the tunnel there was an abandoned rail line that IIRC once crossed the hwy at grade and ran alongside the roadway for a short distance before veering off to what I believe would be the east. I only have a vauge recollection of this but I believe it was narrow gauge (probably 3 ft). I sent an e-mail to the local railfan club (I think the Tennessee Valley Railroad Society or some such name) looking for info but never got a reply. If you know about this line or any possible source that could shed light on it I'd be eternally grateful for any info about that mystery line.
But back to the Dixie Flagler and Flyer. I believe the ACL line out of Atlanta through Manchester and Fitzgerald over which they operated was the former Atlanta Birmingham and Coast. When did the ACL acquire the AB&C and upgrade it to handle these fast trains? Before that time didn't they run out of Atlanta on another route (probably the CofG to Albany) before hitting the ACL's rails? Give me some help on this please.
Mark
And then there is this.
Quite a bit said about the SW having mixed colors. It certainly did--later. But part of what I was trying to convey is that the gradual "silvering" of the SW began when the Dixieland (a silver traiin) was discontinued. These are my observations, though I never saw the train much.
From then on, also a little L&N blue, and less uniformity. But I really suspect the PRR -red was largely intact unitl 1957, when the Dixieland (formerly Dixie Flagler) was dropped. .
Many thanks for the great memories.
The winter train on the Flagler's route was the Dixieland. The same name used in Dec. 1954 to re-equip the Flagler. In fact some timetables called it the "New Dixieland" to avoid confusion with the old but relatively fast heavyweight of WW11.
the winter only train on the SW route was the Florida Arrow.
bill haithcoat wrote: Love your memories. South Wind and Southland both. Do you have any specific Dixie Flagler memories? Was it usually on time, etc:The pullmans did begin about 1949. The west coast sections of the Wind and the City did not begin until the Dixie Flagler(then named Dixieland) was out of the picture. It was the no longer needed Dxieland equipment that provided for the SW to have west coast cars. This happend November 1957.
Love your memories. South Wind and Southland both.
Do you have any specific Dixie Flagler memories? Was it usually on time, etc:
The pullmans did begin about 1949.
The west coast sections of the Wind and the City did not begin until the Dixie Flagler(then named Dixieland) was out of the picture. It was the no longer needed Dxieland equipment that provided for the SW to have west coast cars. This happend November 1957.
I rode the CofM three times, the SW twice and the Flagler only once. My choice of trains was dictated by which ever one operated on the day I wished to depart. With the one exception which I wrote about missing the connection in Jax with the Champion, all other trips were on time almost to the minute. Of course this was the norm at the time when the railroads prided themselves in the timely performance of their passenger trains. While all three were fine trains, I would rate the CofM as being the best in terms of equipment and on board service. The IC up until the early 60's was truly a premier road and the CofM, Panama Limited and City of New Orleans were their top of the line trains.
I think it was 1940 when the three Chi-Florida streamliners were inaugurated. I would have been eight at the time and lived next to the IC main about 24 miles south of Chicago. I remember standing trackside and waving as the CofM sped by on its maiden run. I was thrilled to get two short horn blasts of acknowledgement from the engineer.
In addition to the one trip on the Flagler, I once rode the Georgian over the same route from Atlanta to Chi. It was in February and we were on time until reaching TerreHaute. From there to almost Danville we ran only about 30 mph with the C&EI block signals being out due to an ice storm that took down a lot of the wire lines. My only other trip through Chattanoga and Atlanta was in 1949 or '50 from Cincy to Jax on the Southern's winter season only New Royal Palm. That was a great train which unlike the Chi trains went through the scenic Kentucky and Tennessee hills and mountains during daylight. I spent literally hours at the open dutch door of my coach as we traversed the old CNO&TP "Rathole" division, ducking in and closing the door only as we went trhrough one of the many tunnels. Some where along that stretch we crept past a freight train derailment that still blocked one of the two tracks. There were two steam big hooks on the scene cleaning up the mess (no Hulchers in those days). The New Royal Palm boasted the finest streamlined equipment and the SR's service and food were legendary.
On the subject of winter season trains, following WWII (and possibly before also) every third day winter only trains briefly operated on each of the three Chi-Florida routes. These were unstreamlined and carried mostly heavyweight Pullmans to and from both Miami and the Florida west coast cities IIRC. The IC/CoG/ACL train was the Suchaser, the C&EI/L&N/NC&StL/ACL train I believe had a Dixie name (was it the Dixieland?) but I can't begin to remember the name of the one on the PRR/L&N/ACL. Perhaps you can help with some added info on the trio.
Similutaneous with the Southland being discontinued (or at least the longer haul portions of it). Those two events, the demise of the Dixieland and of the Southland were what caused the WInd and the City to have west coast cars.
bill haithcoat wrote: KFC fan :lots of good info. But actually the South Wind did go through both Birmingham and Montgomery. I am an old Dixie Flagler, Georgian and L&N buff and have tons of old timetables to verify it. Its major cities were: Chicago, Indianapolis, Louisville,Nashville,Birmingham,Montgomery,Jacksonville,Miami. Its Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham, Montgomery route was shared by the well known L&N Humming Bird and Pan American.
KFC fan :lots of good info. But actually the South Wind did go through both Birmingham and Montgomery. I am an old Dixie Flagler, Georgian and L&N buff and have tons of old timetables to verify it. Its major cities were: Chicago, Indianapolis, Louisville,Nashville,Birmingham,Montgomery,Jacksonville,Miami.
Its Louisville, Nashville, Birmingham, Montgomery route was shared by the well known L&N Humming Bird and Pan American.
You are absolutely correct. I must be suffering from "old timers disease" because I had completely forgotten that the L&N's mainline between Louisville and Montgomery ran through Birmingham as well. As a teenager and young man I rode all three of the streamliners between Chicago and Florida and one of my fondest memories was riding the South Wind's observation car early one morning through the fog shrouded turpentine pine forests of south Georgia between Thomasville and Valdosta watching the semaphores rise to green as we cleared each block. My only companion was a very young ACL extra board flagman who looked self conscious in his brand new uniform. My destination was always Bradenton (below Tampa on the ACL's Sarasota line) and in those days I'd have to change at Jacksonville from the Chicago-Miami trains to the ACL's West Coast Champion which carried a through coach and Pullman (from NY) to Sarasota.
I believe it was in the early 1950's that Pullmans were added to the consist of the three trains as well a through coaches and sleepers from Chicago to St. Petersburg, Tampa and Sarasota. These were carried in the Champion south of Jacksonville and the connection at Jax became guaranteed. Prior to that if one of the trains from Chicago was late the Champion would be held in Jax only briefly for passengers coming from Chicago. Once I missed the connection with the Champion and had to ride an all stops ACL local all the way to Tampa in a straight back coach seat. In addition to a few head end cars that local carried only a "Jim Crow" combine and a single coach, lunch was a stale ham and cheese sandwich and candy bar purchased from a news butcher who boarded the train during the Orlando station stop. Even for a railfan it was a trip to be endured not enjoyed!
Your mention of the Southland brings back fond recollections of my first ever trip in a Pullman. It was in the winter of 1942-3 with my Aunt from Tampa to Gary, IN in an open section car with Auntie having the lower and I the upper berth. Two nights and one day behind steam all the way over the ACL's Perry Cutoff, the CofG from Albany to Atlanta, then L&N to Cincy and finally the PRR behind double headed K-4 Pacifics. Another first of that trip was eating in a dining car. I remember that meal like it was yesterday; a breakfast in a CofG diner consisting of fresh orange juice, country ham topped by fried eggs, grits and a piping hot corn meal muffin served in its cast iron baking dish; all savored during a high speed dash behind a CofG Mountain as we rolled up the speedway between Macon and Atlanta. What I wouldn't give to relive that trip again.
KFC fan. I am not a locomotive expert.
But I do know that the Flagler ran separately with L&N locos from Evansville to Nashvillle and then NC&STL from Nashville to Altanta at least until 1957. But then the L&N took over the NC&STL in 1957. I know for sure that L&N locos did not run through from Evansville to Atlana unless it was after they took over.
Whether ACL ran all the way from ATl to Miami or if FEC took over in Jacksonville, I am not sure. You may have that pegged right.
Though I lived in Chattanooga and did not see the Wind very often, my impression is that it stayed pretty close to the tuscan red until the Dixieland(that is, the Dixe Flagler re-equpped in 1954) was discontinued in 1957. That is when the Wind as well as the City added a Florida west coast extension. The SW's share of that was provided by cars from the now defunct Dixieland(former Dixie Flagler).
The heavyweight Southland from Detroit and Chicago via Knoxville and Atlanta to West coast destinations was discontineud about the same time as the Dixieland, thus a need for west coast cars on the remaining SW and CofM.
Just a couple of minor corrections and comments. The early all coach Dixie Flagler trainset was originally built for the FEC and operated for a short time on a daily round trip between Jacksonville and Miami. It became the Dixie Flagler when the Chicago-Miami streamliner service over the three different routes was inagurated IIRC in 1940.
The South Wind went through Montgomery not Birmingham. It's route was PRR Chicago-Louisville, L&N Louisville-Montgomery, ACL Montgomery-Jacksonville and FEC Jacksonville-Miami. IIRC it's original motive power was a streamlined K-4 over the PRR segment, streamlined L&N Pacifics over that road and ACL diesel E units south of Montgomery. It later ran behind sometimes PRR and other times ACL E units all the way between Chicago and at least Jacksonville or possibly Miami, but I believe FEC E's handled the train between Jacksonville and Miami. The South Wind was originally an all PRR tuscan red streamliner but during and after WWII it often ran with a mix of tuscan red and unpainted stainless steel PRR, ACL and FEC cars.
IIRC the Dixie Flagler was the only one of the trio that underwent enroute engine changes between Chicago and Jacksonville after dieselization (C&EI engines Chicago-Evansville, L&N engines over the L&N/NC&StL Evansville-Atlanta and ACL engines south of Atlanta). The City of Miami was the only one of the three trains that always ran with only one road's engines, the IC's, all the way between Chicago and Miami. Unlike the other two, the CofM consist also was always all IC chocolate brown, orange and yellow livery (though originally it was orange and green before the IC adopted its later standard streamliner colors).
PC broke the through connection for the South Wind in late 1969 or early 1970. The Chicago-Louisville leg was not discontinued but PC stopped handling through Chicago-Florida equipment. The South Wind in effect became a Louisville-Florida run and was combined with the Pan-American while on L&N.
JERRYatRPO
From 1940 until 1949 each of the three roads supplied their own motive power. The South Louisville Shops rebuilt three cylinder K5 pacific #295 into a two cylinder loco and added streamline shrouding. Originally in black and silver paint it was repainted after WWII in the tuscan with yellow trim of the PRR. Equipped with a twelve wheel tender with a capacity of 20,000 gals. of water and 27 tons of coal it had the ability to run non stop Louisville to Nashville (187 miles) and Nashville to Birmingham (205 miles, which was the longest non stop steam powered run for several years). In 1949 the railroads replaced steam with E units and NW_611 is right in 1952 the E's began to run through PRR for one trainset and ACL for the other with L&N supplying back up power.
In 1971 Amtrak replaced the South Wind with it's Floridian which ran until 1979.
Dale
Budd must have had a crackerjack sales staff in the period emmediately prior to WWII. They sold a slew of 7 car coach trains that seem to have been built from the same plans (ACL Champion, SAL Silver Meteor, FEC//L&N/C&EI Dixie Flagler, FEC/ACL/L&N/PRR South Wind.) An interesting note is that 2 of them wound up in competetive routes between Chicago and Florida. They used one train set running every three days. If you wanted to leave Chicago on a monday you went to Dearborn Station and left on the C&EI Dixie Flagler, tue. to Central Station and left on the IC City Of Miami (w/Pullman built smooth side equipment), wed. to Union Station and the PRR South Wind. By thurs. the Dixie Flagler was back and the rotation began again.
All the trains originally had a combine (bagg/coach?), 4 coaches, diner and a tavern/obs. (lt wt by 1945 they had added coaches and no tav/obs (due to wartime restrictions)
All the trains were eventually expanded from the original 7 car consist and, as mentioned above, The PRR South Wind lost it's Lowey 2 tone tuscan red paint (and the IC City Of Miami was repainted in the IC standard orange and brown).
From what I understand, the PRR's South Wind was a Budd-equipped train from the get go in the late 1930s. Copied shamelessly from the Internet:
When the South Wind began operation, it utilized an all-coach consist, with diner and lounge car. The original South Wind came equipped with Budd-built light-weight cars painted in the PRR's "Fleet of Modernism" paint scheme of tuscan with yellow accents. By 1947 the South Wind was adding stainless steel cars from ACL and FEC; the Tuscan paint was soon discontinued and the South Wind became a "silver train".
It appears that PRR/ACL power was usually the norm, despite running over the L&N for a fair amount. Hope this helps.
I'm interested in the famous South Wind passenger train. Can someone tell me what the livery was and type of car used (lightweight or heavyweight)?
Thanks jerry
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