Hello! I am researching for a book that includes a train trip from Reading, Penn to NYC in 1909. I need to know:
1. what the train name/line would have been
2. how long the trip would take
3. train fares for adults and children
4. where would they get off the train that was closest to Brooklyn, NY.
Thank you all for your help, I am having a dickens of a time finding this info. Karin
Karin, I don't have a 1909 Official Guide, but the January 1910 Guide lists two railroads serving Reading, PA., the Philadelphia & Reading (later simply the Reading), and the Pennsylvania Railroad. In 1908 neither railroad had a tunnel under the Hudson to get to New York City.
In late 1909, the Pennsylvania started using a tunnel to get to Manhattan. Some web sites list 1908 as the first use of the tunnel.
Reading, PA, was on the main line of the Philadelphia & Reading (the Reading Railroad of Monopoly fame) but on a branch line of the Pennsy out of Philadelphia; a PRR passenger would have to travel to Philly and change trains.
The Reading ran about 5 trains a day to a Hudson River terminus. Neither road ran a train to Brooklyn (on the other side of the Hudson and the other side of the East River) from Reading.
A Reading through train to the Hudson terminus took about 3 hours; a local, 4 hours.
A PRR train from Philly to NYC took about 2 hours; local service to Brooklyn was frequent and usually took 15 minutes or less.
As for train fares, I have no idea; fares were rarely posted in the Guides.
Hopes this helps.
Art
artschlosser wrote: In late 1909, the Pennsylvania started using a tunnel to get to Manhattan.
timz is right; Penn Station started operating in mid 1910 after the East River tunnel was completed bringing Long Island trains into the station; the Hudson River tunnel was completed a bit later and the station hosted those trains in late 1910. 1911 was the first full year of operation. Searches on the internet for exact dates for tunnel completion seem futile; the Hudson and Manhattan tunnels (later PATH) always come up no matter how the search argument is constructed.
So in 1909, no train entered New York City from the west except those operated by the Hudson and Manhattan; the 1910 Guide I have has an entry, with a map even, of the Hudson and Manhattan Railroad, Hudson Tunnel System, showing the location of 'Grand Central Station' and 'Penn. RR Station' (west of and slightly south of GCS), but showing only the tracks of the H&M. Of course The New York Central & Hudson River RR operated trains to Albany and beyond but didn't cross the Hudson River until Albany.
(They reprinted the January 1910 schedule book a few years ago, so that's the one we're all looking at.)
In December 1909 the fastest train from Reading to Jersey City left Reading at 0925 and arrived the ferry terminal http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=40.7070&lon=-74.0347&datum=nad27&layer=DRG at 1223; the ferry was supposed to get you to Liberty St in downtown Manhattan at 1235. I was wrong, there never has been a ferry from that Jersey City terminal to Brooklyn. All the other trains on that route made many more stops and took about an hour longer.
Turns out the PRR route is also a reasonable possibility-- leave Reading at 0650, arrive West Philadelphia 0820, leave West Phil 0824 on a different train, arrive a different Jersey City ferry terminal http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=40.71601&lon=-74.03282&datum=nad27&layer=DRG at 1020. In 1909 there was still a ferry from that terminal to Brooklyn (Fulton St)-- looks like it ran at half-hour intervals, so you wouldn't get to Brooklyn until 1105. On the PRR you have several more trains to choose from; you can leave Reading at 0815 and get to Brooklyn at 1205 (and the connection at West Phil won't be as tight either).
So it depends on where you're going in Brooklyn-- may not be much advantage to ferrying to Brooklyn if the Fulton St ferry terminal is far from your destination.
Unlikely anyone's going to quote you a fare-- all we can do is figure the mileage and guess 2 to 3 cents a mile, for each adult.
Might as well take a look at
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/38/123517834_a083b13ac4_b.jpg
(Click the "enlarge" icon when it appears in the lower-right corner)
Maybe 3 cm from the left edge of the pic you can see the Jersey City ferry terminal I first mentioned, in that open area on the far side of the river, beyond Manhattan. The PRR terminal is long gone-- its ferries quit running around 1950. It was about 2 cm right of that turquoise-pyramid-top tall office building at 40 Wall St in Manhattan.
Depending when the Hudson and Manhattan started operating, that road serviced most Jersey City trains stations. The Reading used Lehigh Valley to Jersey City and H&M entry in the 1910 Guide says the LV used the Pennsy station. Their stations on the Manhattan side had access to some El stations but I sure don't know the El system in NYC.
Here is the M&H page from the January 1910 Guide, actually mainly December 1909 info.
H&M didn't reach the CNJ ferry terminal (the first one I mentioned, at
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?lat=40.7070&lon=-74.0347&datum=nad27&layer=DRG
It did reach the PRR ferry terminal, but that's the one that had a ferry to Brooklyn. So H&M won't be much help.
No experts here on the NY subways and els, but if you tell us where you're going in Brooklyn we'll see what suggestions we have.
artschlosser wrote: The Reading used Lehigh Valley to Jersey City and H&M entry in the 1910 Guide says the LV used the Pennsy station.
If you got on the Reading RR in Reading and rode to Allentown, you could change to the Lehigh Valley there and ride to Jersey City, but the only thru (no connecting) train from Reading to Jersey City used the CNJ, and ended at CNJ's ferry terminal. I didn't check, but I doubt there'd be any reason for a NY-bound passenger to change to the LV at Allentown, instead of riding the CNJ.
Sorry guys, I got sick!!!
They would have been going to St. Felix Street in Brooklyn.
Another question is......did people send their belongings on ahead by train in those days? here is the plot:
a family sends on belongings ahead via train (?) from Williamsport, pa., drives to Reading with family in car, family sells the car in Reading and takes the train to NY. Picked up by car? or ferried in closer to public transportation.
We're trying to reconstruct this trip factually, so we need any help we can get from experts in train travel.
FWIW, my mother and dad, a farmer, were married in 1908 in a rural town in Illinois. Mother received an inheritance; they bought land in, and moved to, Ohio. My older sister was born there in October, 1915. The farm did not proper, and they decided to move back to Illinois.
Dad drove back alone in a car to arrange things but returned by train. My oldest brother, born in 1909, was never told what happened to the car. The things they decided to keep went to Illinois by train as did they. Even back when I worked occasionally as a freight agent (1950-52), odd lots would often come by train, either as freight but more often as express shipments (more expensive). Railroads are now out of the LCL (less than carload lot) business.
By 1950, the various railroad owned express agencies had been merged into the Railway Express Agency, usually referred to by the initials R-E-A, never pronounced as Rea. A freight house had room to store received shipments until claimed.
Through trains are preferable to changing trains. And hauling luggage up long flights of stairs, as elevated railroads have, is not fun. Trying to get them onto a streetcar is no picnic either. I've done both.
In 1917, one "L" in Chicago tried to raise its rate from a nickle to 7 cents. Chicago would have none of it at that time. By 1945, it had risen to 10 cents, the same as the Motor Coach fare. Street cars were up to 8 cents. My older brother would never ride if the walk was less than two miles; very frugal, you might say. I have no data for NYC.
Thank you Art for sharing that story with us, it validates our theory that they sent their belongings ahead. As for subway prices, I think NYC was a nickel for over 40 years. Compare that to the post office hikes in the past few years, boy have times changed. I've hardly used one page of the new stamp, heck, I 'm not sure I even know how much a stamp is today.........lol. Thanks again Art, we love any and all comments about past stories handed down, they all mean something eventually in terms of writing.
In 1909, it would have made abundant sense to take the PRR via West Philadelphia and have a direct ferry to Fulton Street Brooklyn. The Fulton Ferry was a terminal for many streetcar lines and there was an elevated station close by, so transportation to most points in Brooklyn would have been easy. But the Liberty Street Ferry served by CNJ, Reading, and B&O trains did not have good transit connections in New York and most commuters walked to work (and continued to do so for the life of the terminal, why the Suysquehanna later opted for a connecting bus froom a transfer station and the B&O several routes bus from the Jersey City terminal). The only city transit line serving the Liberty Street Ferry was Third Avenue's Belt Line, which was horse-car operated with some experimental operation of battery cars, or possibly all battery car operation at the time, on very congested streets shared in part by New York Central freight trains!
The only rapid transit connections into Manhattan from Brooklyn in 1909 were all over on the East Side, the Park Row Brooklyn Bridge terminal (near City Hall) which served eight elevated services in Brooklyn, and the Williamsburg Bridge Essex and Delancy Street terminal which served two elevated routes, and the IRT subway, with its nearest stations at Broadway and Wall and Broadway and Fulton (Manhattan).
Interesting post, Dave. Your knowledge of NYC always amazes me and are enjoyable 'reads'. My parents were quite old when I was born so I learned quite a bit more about my area at the turn of the century when compared to my peers.
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