For ITRR Fans: The Legend of Dinky.

[KCSfan]

Hi Wally and Dave,

You guys are bringing back a flood of memories that unfortunately exist only in my mind as I was never much into photograpy. I really regret not getting pictures of the CNS&M trains switching from 3rd rail to overhead wire on the "fly" around Skokie. I have always been partial to interurbans and mixed trains. I guess because they were rapidly vanishing breeds when I was a kid and teenager in the 30's and 40's.

I have ridden the ITC, the South Shore and the North Shore but never in an Electroliner. In 1959 I married a girl from Waukegan who lived about 4 blocks from the North Shore line and it was routine to see their trains when we were dating and for the few years they continued to operate after we were married. As a teenager I rode the old IC MU cars to and from Flossmoor and Harvey where I attended Thornton Twp. HS. I Later went to the Uof I on Navy Pier for two semesters and commuted to Randolph St. on the IC, walked a few blocks north across the river and rode the Chicago Surface Lines streetcar which terminated at the foot of Navy Pier. For the life of me I can't remember the street they ran on but recall the cars were smaller than the big red two man cars that operated on the CSL's major routes. I'm not sure but IIRC they were one man cars. I especially enjoyed an occasional ride on a CSL "Green Hornet" on the Clark St. line. I often saw CA&E cars on the loop but never rode on one. While attending Purdue in the late 40's I'd occasionally spend a weekend in Indianapolis. I remember the big arch roofed, open ended Traction Terminal on Illinois Ave. but by that time the interurbans were long gone and it was then an intercity bus terminal. The multi tracks were still visibible in the concrete floor and I could imagine what a bee hive of activity it was when the interurbans of the Indiana Railway and the Interstate were tenants there.

Prior to my marriage I usually drove to work at the Western Electric Hawthorne plant in Cicero but would occasionally take the IC downtown then the Douglas Park El to Cermak Rd. This El line ran around the Loop and at ground level the last few miles through Cicero to its terminus in Berwyn. The last year or so that I worked at Hawthorne the Douglas Park trains were diverted off the elevated loop and ran through downtown via the newly completed subway.

In 1961 WE transferred me to New York and I commuted on the MU trains of the Lackawanna from Madison to Hoboken NJ. These cars were almost identical to the IC's except they used trap doors and steps since the Lackawanna stations, unlike the IC's, were all at ground level. From Hoboken I'd ride either the Lackawanna's ferry or take the Hudson & Manhattan "tubes" across the river to downtown Manhattan. When I first started riding them the H&M cars were all still of 1920's vintage and, while I believe they were actually painted Pullman green, were black with 40+ years of grime and dirt. During my 4 years in New York City The H&M became the PATH (Port Authority Trans Hudson) and the old cars were replaced with new stainless steel, air conditioned ones. The downtown Manhattan stop on the H&M was in the lower level of the Hudson Terminal building. Before I left NY the building was razed and excavation began for the World Trade Center twin towers which were to be built on its former location. It was interesting to see the excavation work progress with the H&M still running through the site in its then exposed original cast iron "tubes" supported on temporary steel trestlework.

During my four year stint in NY I ocassiaonlly rode the red cars of the 8th Ave. subway line to midtown. I also rode the electrified through trains of the Pennsy behind GG-1's to Philly and Baltimore and made several trips out of Grand Central behind the electric motors of the NYC and NH on trains to Chicago, Ohio and Boston.

As a youngster I was intrigued by three other interurbans which I never personally saw, only pictures in Raliroad and Trains Magazines; the CRANDIC, the Piedmont Northern and the Denver and Intermountain. My interest in these stemmed from their similarity to my favorite Illinois Terminal in that they all ran substantial freight trains behind electric motors in addition to their passenger cars.

Wow Dave, 5 consecutive nights in sleepers must be some kind of a record (unless you consider the whole seasons often spent on circus trains). I made numerous trips in sleepers during the 40's, 50's and mid 60's but with one exception these were all one nighters. The one exception was my first ride in a Pullman, a two night one day trip with my aunt in the winter of 1942-3 in an open section car between Tampa and Gary, IN over the ACL, CofG, L&N and PRR on the old Southland.

Dave, I was transferred to Shreveport in 1965 and still live there. I well know the St. Paul Episcopal church which you mention and have attended several weddings there over the years. For the first few years after I moved here the Line Ave. trolley bus (or trackless trolley if you prefer) still ran just three blocks from my house between downtown and a turnaround loop in Cedar Grove on the then far south side of Shreveport. Long after it was replaced by diesel busses the signs up and down Line Ave. still proclaimed to be "Trolley Stops".   

I think I'm getting carpal tunnel syndrome from all this typing so I'll quit my ramblings for now and catch you guys later.

Mark

 

 

[wallyworld]

Regarding the Illinois Terminal, I have a somewhat sadder story to tell.   My very first visit to St.Louis was at the tail end of a multi-project business trip that had me sleeping five seccessive nights in railroad sleeping cars.  I had work in both the New York and Cambridge, MA offices of Bolt Beranek and Newman, and the first night saw me on Owl from Boston to NY,with my traditional breakfast at Stouffers across the street (or ajacent to?) Grand Central Terminal.   That evening I boarded a Seabord streamliner, I suppose the Silver Star or the Silver Comet, but not the premier Meteor, in a roomette to SDouthern Pines NC or Hamlet, S.C., where I was met by a client with car and driven to Hickory, spending they analyzing their problems, then driven to Charlotte, where the wire for the Piedmont and Northern interurban (by then freight only) ws still up at the Southern RR station.   I boarded a coach on the Piedmont, switching to a double bedroom in Atlanta, and arriving in New Orleans, where I took care of business for the new Convention Center and rode both St. Charles and Canal, and got to run the old 4-wheel Ford Bacon and Davis work car at  Carolton shops a short distance so I could photograph it in front of the Barn.  Then a roomette on either the Flying Crow or the Southern Bell on the KCS to Sheverport, where I had businss at St. Marks Episcopal and still count Bill Teague the organist as a good friend to this day (just listened to a CD he sent me last night).   Also rode one trolleybus line, which was still running.  Then a roomette in an MP sleeper on the KCS connection to Little Rock, where the car was switched to the MP, arriving the next morning in St. Louis.   After business there, I went to the IT station hoping to ride the remaining service, double-end PCC's across the river to Grafton, only to find that the last passenger service had quit the week before.  One of the VP's of the railroad was about and on the pretext of possibly buying equipment for the Shore Line (then just Branford) Trolley Museum, I got a wonderful tour of the PCC's, two of the streamliners, and some of the repainted old cars in the basement station platform-trackage area.  I suspect that he knew all along that neither I nor the museum had the money to outbid the scrappers, but he enjoyed being host as much as I enjoyed seeing the equipment, with of course the sadness that I'd missed riding it.  If I remember correctly, I did stay over a night to ride three of the four remaining regular St.Louis PCC streetcar lines the next day, one was Hodemont, and I think the one I didn't ride was Grant or Grand, and then it was TWA back to Boston. 

 

Interurbans I did ride: CNS&M, CA&E, CSS&SB, Waterloo Ceder Falls and Northern, Charles City Western (in a freight locomotive), Lehigh Valley Transit (Liberty Bell several times,once in a freight, and Easton Limited once), West Penn (whole postwar system), Pittsburgh Railways (ditto for the interurban lines), Baltimore and Annapolis, Laural Line several times, and Canadian National's Quebec operaton,and a number in Europe plus Manx Electric on the Isle of Mann.  Hard to say which I enjoyed most, but I guess the speed and variety of the North Shore, and the railfan seat in the Electroliners topped everything else, with Liberty Bell next as giving a reasonable impression of what Indiana Railroad and Cincinnati and Lake Erie were.  I rode these interurbans any time I could.   Just like the Rio Grande Zephyr much later in life.

Dave,

Your post brought to mind the variety of experiences we somewhat older heads could avail ourselves of..and it was quite a trip you had and I enjoyed every minute reading it..What were your impressions of The Laurel Line? That was also a pretty unique operation..of course back then I suppose one could say they all were. I also rode The Rio Grande Zephyr and it ranks right up there as a class act..in the PreAmtrakified white bread variety we have today...I am hopefully going to return to Scrantion this summer  in conjunction with the Altoona Rail Fest to ride the Levin's PRR consist around Horseshoe..I undersatnd they rebuilt the tunnel coming out of Scranton on the old LL...something like a mile long.. 

[daveklepper]

Regarding the Illinois Terminal, I have a somewhat sadder story to tell.   My very first visit to St.Louis was at the tail end of a multi-project business trip that had me sleeping five seccessive nights in railroad sleeping cars.  I had work in both the New York and Cambridge, MA offices of Bolt Beranek and Newman, and the first night saw me on Owl from Boston to NY,with my traditional breakfast at Stouffers across the street (or ajacent to?) Grand Central Terminal.   That evening I boarded a Seabord streamliner, I suppose the Silver Star or the Silver Comet, but not the premier Meteor, in a roomette to SDouthern Pines NC or Hamlet, S.C., where I was met by a client with car and driven to Hickory, spending they analyzing their problems, then driven to Charlotte, where the wire for the Piedmont and Northern interurban (by then freight only) ws still up at the Southern RR station.   I boarded a coach on the Piedmont, switching to a double bedroom in Atlanta, and arriving in New Orleans, where I took care of business for the new Convention Center and rode both St. Charles and Canal, and got to run the old 4-wheel Ford Bacon and Davis work car at  Carolton shops a short distance so I could photograph it in front of the Barn.  Then a roomette on either the Flying Crow or the Southern Bell on the KCS to Sheverport, where I had businss at St. Marks Episcopal and still count Bill Teague the organist as a good friend to this day (just listened to a CD he sent me last night).   Also rode one trolleybus line, which was still running.  Then a roomette in an MP sleeper on the KCS connection to Little Rock, where the car was switched to the MP, arriving the next morning in St. Louis.   After business there, I went to the IT station hoping to ride the remaining service, double-end PCC's across the river to Grafton, only to find that the last passenger service had quit the week before.  One of the VP's of the railroad was about and on the pretext of possibly buying equipment for the Shore Line (then just Branford) Trolley Museum, I got a wonderful tour of the PCC's, two of the streamliners, and some of the repainted old cars in the basement station platform-trackage area.  I suspect that he knew all along that neither I nor the museum had the money to outbid the scrappers, but he enjoyed being host as much as I enjoyed seeing the equipment, with of course the sadness that I'd missed riding it.  If I remember correctly, I did stay over a night to ride three of the four remaining regular St.Louis PCC streetcar lines the next day, one was Hodemont, and I think the one I didn't ride was Grant or Grand, and then it was TWA back to Boston. 

 

Interurbans I did ride: CNS&M, CA&E, CSS&SB, Waterloo Ceder Falls and Northern, Charles City Western (in a freight locomotive), Lehigh Valley Transit (Liberty Bell several times,once in a freight, and Easton Limited once), West Penn (whole postwar system), Pittsburgh Railways (ditto for the interurban lines), Baltimore and Annapolis, Laural Line several times, and Canadian National's Quebec operaton,and a number in Europe plus Manx Electric on the Isle of Mann.  Hard to say which I enjoyed most, but I guess the speed and variety of the North Shore, and the railfan seat in the Electroliners topped everything else, with Liberty Bell next as giving a reasonable impression of what Indiana Railroad and Cincinnati and Lake Erie were.  I rode these interurbans any time I could.   Just like the Rio Grande Zephyr much later in life.

[wallyworld]

Hi Wally,

Yes the ITC cars could easily do 70 mph and more. The normal top speed on the Danville-Decatur line which I rode, and on the Bloomington line as well, was probably closer to 60 mph. I have heard stories of the ITC racing and beating Alton passenger trains at points between Lincoln and Springfield where the two roads ran side by side. Of course this was only for short stretches since the ITC left its private ROW and ran down the city streets of just about every town along the way.

I caught my first sight of an ITC train at dusk around Hamel on the Peoria-St. Louis main line during a family car trip to Springfield, MO in 1942. Dad was driving 60 mph down US 66 when we were overtaken and passed by a 6 car southbound ITC train. I didn't get a close up look since the ITC at that point ran about 1/2 mile west of the highway but I disticntly remember the brightly lighted car windows as the train sped by enroute to St. Louis. Based on our speed I'd estimate it was hitting about 75 mph.

My first ride on the ITC was the one I mentioned in my prior reply. A fellow railfan and student at Purdue took the Wabash overnight Detroit-St. Louis train around 2-3 am from Lafayette to Danville. We walked to where the ITC car was parked on a city street waiting its morning run (the first of 3 daily schedules) to Decatur. The car was open so we climbed aboard and stretched out on the seats to catch a couple of hours sleep. Around 6:30 we were awakened by a car cleaner who swept the car out and filled the cooler with fresh water. About an hour later the motorman and conductor showed up and moved the car a few blocks to the Danville station. About 10 more passengers boarded and around 8 o'clock we were off on our westbound run. The conductor gave me his copy of a hand written train order which I have to this day somewhere in my piles of railroad memorabilia. I remember the order read something like, "To C&M train No. 123, Car No. 456 meet train No. 789 east Car No. 234 at Champaign". Somewhere I also have an ITC timetable signed by both the motorman and conductor of that run. We picked up another passenger at IIRC Fithian, two more at Ogden and several more at Urbana. At Champaign several passengers got off and 12 or so more got on. My friend and I stretched our legs on the station platform for the 10 or so minutes we waited for the eastbound car we had the meet with. Leaving Champaign the car was about half filled and we picked up a few more passengers at Monticello and other points. I remember the train stopping on the outskirts of Monticello to let an elderly lady off right at her front door which was one of the homey personal features of ITC operations. My friend and I told the conductor we wanted to get off at North Junction in Decatur which was where the line from Peoria via Bloomington joined the east-west line.

At North Junction we waited for around a half hour until the southbound morning car off the Bloomington line passed by before walking a short way to the ITC's Decatur shops. It was Saturday and the shops were deserted except for a watchman who let us have the run of the place once we told him we were railfans. In the shop buildings and just outside there were a number of freight motors (Class B, C and D's) as well as a dozen or so passenger cars and we spent the day touring them all. Early that evening we caught the last train of the day for the final run back to Danville which I described in my prior reply.

A few years later while attending the UofI I made several round trips from Champaign to Decatur as well as the cab rides on the freight motors to Ogden which I previously mentioned. Most of these trips were on the orange cars but twice one of the old cars painted silver and blue to match the streamliners were assigned to the runs that I took. I never rode the new post WWII streamliners but I have seen the one (at that time usually only a one car train) that ran between Decatur-Springfield-St. Louis several times at the Decatur station. I hope this long narrative hasn't bored you to tears.

Mark  

 

Mark,

On the contrary, I soaked up you descriptive narrative and appreciate the time you set aside to write it. Speaking strickly for myself, I would hope that you might consider writing a piece for either Classic Trains or the excellent ITS Magazine. It's one thing to read a book and try to put the pieces together and quite another thing to hear a first person narrative from someone who was there. I remember Don Ball saying that when the PRR was in steam, he was'nt particularly interested in taking photographs of it, and he remarked that now, in hindsight, it's a major regret. Same for myself and the IT. I spent part of my youth living very close to the CNSM..and never considered nor did I know anything about how extensive and varied their operation was. Again..thanks for the reply..I really enjoyed it.  

[KCSfan]

Hi Wally,

Yes the ITC cars could easily do 70 mph and more. The normal top speed on the Danville-Decatur line which I rode, and on the Bloomington line as well, was probably closer to 60 mph. I have heard stories of the ITC racing and beating Alton passenger trains at points between Lincoln and Springfield where the two roads ran side by side. Of course this was only for short stretches since the ITC left its private ROW and ran down the city streets of just about every town along the way.

I caught my first sight of an ITC train at dusk around Hamel on the Peoria-St. Louis main line during a family car trip to Springfield, MO in 1942. Dad was driving 60 mph down US 66 when we were overtaken and passed by a 6 car southbound ITC train. I didn't get a close up look since the ITC at that point ran about 1/2 mile west of the highway but I disticntly remember the brightly lighted car windows as the train sped by enroute to St. Louis. Based on our speed I'd estimate it was hitting about 75 mph.

My first ride on the ITC was the one I mentioned in my prior reply. A fellow railfan and student at Purdue took the Wabash overnight Detroit-St. Louis train around 2-3 am from Lafayette to Danville. We walked to where the ITC car was parked on a city street waiting its morning run (the first of 3 daily schedules) to Decatur. The car was open so we climbed aboard and stretched out on the seats to catch a couple of hours sleep. Around 6:30 we were awakened by a car cleaner who swept the car out and filled the cooler with fresh water. About an hour later the motorman and conductor showed up and moved the car a few blocks to the Danville station. About 10 more passengers boarded and around 8 o'clock we were off on our westbound run. The conductor gave me his copy of a hand written train order which I have to this day somewhere in my piles of railroad memorabilia. I remember the order read something like, "To C&M train No. 123, Car No. 456 meet train No. 789 east Car No. 234 at Champaign". Somewhere I also have an ITC timetable signed by both the motorman and conductor of that run. We picked up another passenger at IIRC Fithian, two more at Ogden and several more at Urbana. At Champaign several passengers got off and 12 or so more got on. My friend and I stretched our legs on the station platform for the 10 or so minutes we waited for the eastbound car we had the meet with. Leaving Champaign the car was about half filled and we picked up a few more passengers at Monticello and other points. I remember the train stopping on the outskirts of Monticello to let an elderly lady off right at her front door which was one of the homey personal features of ITC operations. My friend and I told the conductor we wanted to get off at North Junction in Decatur which was where the line from Peoria via Bloomington joined the east-west line.

At North Junction we waited for around a half hour until the southbound morning car off the Bloomington line passed by before walking a short way to the ITC's Decatur shops. It was Saturday and the shops were deserted except for a watchman who let us have the run of the place once we told him we were railfans. In the shop buildings and just outside there were a number of freight motors (Class B, C and D's) as well as a dozen or so passenger cars and we spent the day touring them all. Early that evening we caught the last train of the day for the final run back to Danville which I described in my prior reply.

A few years later while attending the UofI I made several round trips from Champaign to Decatur as well as the cab rides on the freight motors to Ogden which I previously mentioned. Most of these trips were on the orange cars but twice one of the old cars painted silver and blue to match the streamliners were assigned to the runs that I took. I never rode the new post WWII streamliners but I have seen the one (at that time usually only a one car train) that ran between Decatur-Springfield-St. Louis several times at the Decatur station. I hope this long narrative hasn't bored you to tears.

Mark  

 

[wallyworld]

Wally,

Thanks for posting this interesting article. I've ridden the big orange cars of the ITC mostly between Decatur and Danville and even rode the last train when the line was abandoned from Ogden to Danville (1950 give or take a year). The last train into Danville was made up of a motor car and a trailer packed to the gills with railfans and regular riders wishing to say goodby. The motorman laid on the horn most of the way east of Urbana into Danville to acknowledge the many folks who stood at trackside waving farwell to the "Traction".

Of course the ITC continued passenger and freight service over the rest of the system for about three or four more years. As a student at the UofI I'd sometimes catch cab rides in a Class C freight motor from Urbana to the eastern end of the line at Ogden and back. This train made a late night round trip from Decatur six, or maybe it was only five, nights a week.

Mark

 

I was in Danville for a meeting of The Illinois Traction Society and decided to go for a self guided tour and wound up in Fifthian..The substation\station with it's quasi-oriental tile roof stood out in this small farming community. Of course, I parked the car and began to snap photos...There was a young couple across the street who noticed my activity with some trepidation..and approached me and asked what exactly it was I was doing...they were the owners. They gave me a wonderful tour and I gave them the station's history. They had no concept of this building's former use...nor of the IT..I asked Dale Jenkins if he could send them a copy of our newslatter..he did..last I heard they were turning it into a residence..someday..I hope to make it down there again and see how it turned out...There was another fellow who owned a substation, and was trying single-handedly to turn his into a museum...was trying to talk to the NS into donating some trackage they were going to abandon..He was a piano teacher..never heard of his efforts since..I often wonder how he fared.

I heard the IT cars could really zip along...is this true?  I have heard and read 70-80 mph could be reached..is this so? Id like to hear more about your trips...

[KCSfan]

Wally,

Thanks for posting this interesting article. I've ridden the big orange cars of the ITC mostly between Decatur and Danville and even rode the last train when the line was abandoned from Ogden to Danville (1950 give or take a year). The last train into Danville was made up of a motor car and a trailer packed to the gills with railfans and regular riders wishing to say goodby. The motorman laid on the horn most of the way east of Urbana into Danville to acknowledge the many folks who stood at trackside waving farwell to the "Traction".

Of course the ITC continued passenger and freight service over the rest of the system for about three or four more years. As a student at the UofI I'd sometimes catch cab rides in a Class C freight motor from Urbana to the eastern end of the line at Ogden and back. This train made a late night round trip from Decatur six, or maybe it was only five, nights a week.

Mark

 

[wallyworld]

Once upon a time in Illinois, along the Mighty River....was a small community who rode The Dinky.....lest they forget..my favorite road.

http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/living/16933792.htm