Naive Steam Question

[tomikawaTT]

One thing no one seems to have mentioned:

A steam locomotive, working hard, would exhaust copious quantities of exhaust steam, which would cool and condense into water vapor - often a foot or several above the stack.  This was especially pronounced when the weather was either cold or humid.  When drifting, the steam plume would disappear.

Chuck

[PBenham]

That photo of 614 looks like the trips on the video The Phoenix Engine. (Hopewell Productions, 1980).  May be available on DVD by now.

I can confirm that it is available on DVD. All of Hopewell's programs are on DVD, BTW. A Google or other search will get one to their web site.

[old old carman]

On the first warm day of spring,  before air conditioning, the windows would  be thrown up and the housewives would begin complaining about the smoke from the engines sooting-up the curtains.  We lived a block from the Falls yard.  It was a flat yard and the switch engines shunting cars had to smoke it up in order to get  the shunted cars rolling fast enough from a standing start to couple  with cars at the far end of yard. The penalty for failing to couple was a time consuming run down the yard to close the gap between the cars plus a heated word from the yard conductor about wasting fuel.

[Anonymous]

No such thing as a Naive steam question.

You want a clean fire with a clean engine to do the work properly without smoke, but unfortunately (Or fortunately) hard working steam makes lots of stack talk and pour it to the sky.

If they poured the sky black at less than 5 mph in street running then someone is going to complain.

Some days you can almost see what a steamer is up to by the sound and the color of the exhaust.

I find references to punishments for making too much smoke rather amusing, as a trucker I was not allowed to make smoke in certain parts of the USA or there would be a fine. Like I had a choice or any control over it.

The best way to make smoke in a desiel engine is to blow out the Intercooler Line and rob it of charged cold air. I buried a scalehouse in smoke once, made em mad as hornets but they must have known that my company shop was less than 15 minutes down the road at the time.

[wallyworld]

Another way to verify that smoke and steam motive power is not inevitable is to see a film of the opposite, modern or latter day steam running at speed with no or little smoke....If you see films of The Red Devil, it sounds like a sewing machine on steroids with little smoke, or for that matter, 611 when properly fired for non entertainment use.

[wjstix]

I remember one steam era photographer commenting that engineers used to sometimes speed up when they saw their picture was being taken, hoping to go fast enough to blur the picture so that the engine no. wasn't readable. The crew thought the photographer was a company official that was taking their pic to use as evidence against the crew creating too much smoke - too much smoke often meant the fireman wasn't handling the fire right and was wasting coal, he could get black marks etc. for excessive smoke.

[feltonhill]

That photo of 614 looks like the trips on the video The Phoenix Engine. (Hopewell Productions, 1980).  May be available on DVD by now.

[GP40-2]

How about this for some smoke:

This wasn't a case of the fireman putting on a show. The C&O 614 was working hard pulling 27 loaded passenger cars up a 2.2% grade unassisted. 

[rtstasiak]

Dear Florida Pan,

Since I used to live in Tallahassee from 1982 to 1994, let me answer the locomotive smoke question in 'local' terms.   I'm sure that those Seaboard crews made a lot of black smoke when they poured on the coal while making a run for or on the nearly 1-percent grade through Tally.  It must have been glorious to see eastbound trains run south and east of the Old Capitol, fighting their way up to the summit under Magnolia Street.  And let's not forget the old roller coaster connection behind Doak Campbell Stadium and the line to Bainbridge, Georgia.  Among other things, this line fed the coal boilers at FSU at one time, as it made its way across Tennessee Street and up the hill parallel to Mission Road.

 It would be interesting to see if there are any pictures or even film snippets of the (steam) Trains of Tallahassee.

Rich 

 

 

[selector]

 

I meant nothing disrespectful to firemen at all with my question, and I apologize if it came across that way.

Michael, I sensed no disrespect.  I just wanted to add a reminder to all readers that while there were undoubtedly "bad" or careless firemen, most took pride in their work and wanted "their" lady to act and look like one.  Bad and good alike, they would indulge onlookers who were hoping for a real show.  It's just that the bad firemen didn't have to change much of what they were doing. 

Also, as someone said above, fuel quality sometimes meant that the steamers were going to smoke no matter how they were fired, depending on the amount of work that was being required of them.

-Crandell

[jimrice4449]

Out here in the PacNW we get a chance to see a number of big engines in fan trip situations and great gobs of smoke at photo run-bys are pretty much SOP.

I've got a question that I've wondered about for years and I might as well hijack this post to ask it (it's related)   Why is it in pix of double headed steam engines, the rear eng almost always is puting out more smoke than the lead engine?

[MOJAX]

Michael, in fairness to firemen, living and gone, the smoke you see belching in many photos was done purposefully for effect.  The cameraman was often one of many folks gathered for railfanning or another purpose, maybe publicity, and the wow factor often dictated that a lot of smoke should come forth.  So, dutifully, but not always with alacrity, the firemen provided smoke...it was easy for him.

-Crandell

 

I meant nothing disrespectful to firemen at all with my question, and I apologize if it came across that way. My only experience with steam has been on fan trips and museums and in every case it appeared to me that the locomotive was really belching out the smoke. In the Summer 2001 issue of Classic Trains a story on O. Winston Link mentioned that sometimes the N&W crews would lay it on for him because they knew he was down the line ready with camera in hand. I was curious if my photo (above) would be considered “normal” or was there some “show” involved with the smoke coming from the stack.

 

[selector]

Michael, in fairness to firemen, living and gone, the smoke you see belching in many photos was done purposefully for effect.  The cameraman was often one of many folks gathered for railfanning or another purpose, maybe publicity, and the wow factor often dictated that a lot of smoke should come forth.  So, dutifully, but not always with alacrity, the firemen provided smoke...it was easy for him.

-Crandell

[MOJAX]

In this photo, based on the smoke is the loco running properly or is the fireman putting on a show?

 http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=45962

[PBenham]

There are no naive questions, only naive answers, Grasshopper!

[BillyDee53]

The answer to all the above questions, is yes.

A steam locomotive is not SUPPOSED to give off huge plumes of smoke.  Smoke is an indication that something is not right.  As Tom said above, the black stuff in the smoke is carbon...hat is what is supposed to burn in the firebox.  Smoke could be caused by too much fuel onm the fire, not enough air, both mean the fireman is not doing his job right ...the origin of the phrase "money up in smoke".  Or he might have thrown sand in the fire, to sandblast the flues.

If you look inside the smokebox, the exhaust pipes from the cylinders meet in a nozzle under the stack.  As the steam exhausts it goes straight up the stack, creating a venturi effect in the smokebox, and drawing the smoke from the firebox, forward through the flues, into the smokebox, then up the stack.  There would be some white condensed steam, and some darker smoke mixed in.  In cold weather, there would be a lot of visible, white steam.

In the US, most people alive today, if they remember steam at all, remember locomotives that had been used hard during the depression, followed by the second world war.  In other words the locos got a lot of use and not a lot of maintenance, for a long time.  They were worn out. They smoked a lot.  Movie ad tv audiences expect to see big clouds of smoke, so photographers, movie and tv makers give us what we want.  Loco crews can manipulate things to make the loco smoke, momentarily, even if the loco is steaming correctly.

A lot of cities had smoke abatement ordinances that restricted the amount of smoke a loco could make.  They had inspectors who looked for locos that made smoke, and timed the smoke cloud to see how long it took to dissipate.  Railroad companies were fined for violations. Some locos had a small light mounted behind the stack for the measuring the smoke density.

Oil burners made less smoke, unless they were operating poorly.

[MOJAX]

Do oil burners put out a different type of smoke than coal burning locomotives?

[TomDiehl]

I know I'm really showing my ignorance in asking this, but here goes.  In photos and videos of steam locomotives I've seen, sometimes they are belching massive columns of smoke, while other times they are running along with nothing at all coming out of the stack.  What gives?  Do they only smoke when they are accelerating or otherwise working hard?  Also, sometimes the smoke is white while other times its nearly black.  Is there some combination of steam and soot/ash that's being sent through the stack?  Enquiring minds want to know, thanks.

The smoke from the stack is a function of several factors. The two most important are the quality of the coal and the skill of the fireman. Working hard CAN cause the smoke to darken and it is usually an indication of incomplete combustion. There are also times when working the engine that the fireman will "clean the flues" which will also give dark smoke for a short time.

[FloridaPanhandler]

I know I'm really showing my ignorance in asking this, but here goes.  In photos and videos of steam locomotives I've seen, sometimes they are belching massive columns of smoke, while other times they are running along with nothing at all coming out of the stack.  What gives?  Do they only smoke when they are accelerating or otherwise working hard?  Also, sometimes the smoke is white while other times its nearly black.  Is there some combination of steam and soot/ash that's being sent through the stack?  Enquiring minds want to know, thanks.