How many dining cars can a train carry in a real world situation?

[Anonymous]

Hello everyone here. 

 

My middle school nephew is doing a train project.  He asked me if it is possible to have more than one dining car in a single passenger train.  If so, how many dining cars can a train carry in a real world situation?  I have no idea to the answer of this question.  Could some knowledge people help me out here? 

 

We also like to know how to position each dining car in a train.  Could someone tell us how does one position two dining cars, three dining cars, and more than three dining cars in a passenger train?  If the answer can’t be found easily, can anyone give a suggestion based on his/her knowledge and experience? 

[coalminer3]

Good Afternnon:

In a word, yes. 

Number of diners "back in the day" depended on the level of service provided on the train.  For example, some trains carried two diners because of the times they operated, the cities served, clientele, etc.

Other train carried a diner (offering food at higher prices) and a lounge car (offered snacks, beverages, etc. at more "popular" prices.

Shorter routes or routes with fewer passengers carried so called diner-lounge cars which provided food and beverage service in one car.

Still other trains had "twin unit" diners.  These cars consisted of a kitchen/dormitory car and a second car where meals were served.  The reason for this was that you could serve more passengers quicker.

Many diners ran from end point to end point city, however, sometimes diners were cut in and out of a train en route inorder to get better car use. 

Today, Amtrak offers a varity of food services.  You can go to their website and find out more about them.  Again, however, the idea of cities, distances, and clientele applies.

The second question refers to what's called the train's consist. IOW, how cars are aranged.

In general, if a train carries sleeping cars and coaches, the diner is placed between the sleepers and the coaches.  The reason for this is to reduce the number of passengers walking through the sleeping cars.

Here's how this would look:

Locomotive/baggage/sleeper/sleeper/sleeper/diner/coach/coach/coach

Here's how it looks with a lounge car and a diner

Locomotive/baggage/sleeper/sleeper/sleeper/diner/lounge/coach/coach/coach

How about two diners?

Locomotive/baggage/sleeper/sleeper/sleeper/diner/sleeper/sleeper/sleeper/diner/coach/coach/

coach/coach/coach

NOTE: Lounge cars could be added as approriate.  I think you get the idea.

Here's one other thing.  Usually the kitchen end of the diner was toward the rear to keep food odors, smoke, etc. out of the area where passengers sat.

Hope this helps - let me know if you have any other questions

work safe

[csmith9474]

Beginning in the late 50's, the Santa Fe consolidated it's two premier long distance trains into a single train during the slow seasons. These two trains were the Super Chief (all sleeper) and the El Capitan (all coach). Both of these trains had their own diners, so there were two diners on the conslidated train. Below is a simple consist of this train...

Baggage

Baggage

RPO

Baggage

Baggage/Dormitory

Hi Level Step Up Coach

Hi Level Coach

Hi Level Diner

Hi Level Lounge

Hi Level Coach

Hi Level Step Up Coach

10-6 Sleeper (Pine or Palm)

4-4-2 Sleeper (Regal Series)

Dome Bar Lounge (Pleasure Dome)

P/S Built 600 series 36 seat diner

4-4-2 Sleeper (Regal Series)

10-6 Sleeper (Pine or Palm)

10-6 Sleeper (Pine or Palm)

[jimrice4449]

If by diner you're referring to the car that generally seated 36 at linen covered tables rather than coffee shop/lunch counter type cars the maximum would generally be two.   In one specific case, the Twentieth Century Limited, the usual procedure, unless there was an unusually light psgr load, would be to run two diners w/ the dining room ends of the cars adjacent to each other and, after the evening meal was served, us the two cars (they had wider than normal end vestibules) as a two car mid-train lounge.   This in addition to a lounge in the observation car at the rear and another in the dormitory car at the head end.   This wasn,t known world wide as the ultimate in rail luxury w/o a good reason!

[M636C]

While this might be different from the USA situation, in Australia the Great Southern Railway trains, the Ghan and the Indian Pacific  run a first class section consisting of five sleeping cars, a diner and a lounge, and a second class section consisting of a slumbercoach, two coaches a diner and a lounge.

So in normal times the trains each have two dining cars, one for each class. In first class, the meals are included in the fare, so the number of first class sleeping cars is limited by the number of passengers that can be accommodated in three sittings of the 48 seat dining car.

During the Western Australian "wildflower season" the Indian Pacific normally runs with two complete first class sections, so the train has three dining cars, counting the second class section.

The Ghan usually has two sfirst class sections, but I have seen a 45 car Ghan during the period just after the line to Darwin opened, which had five first class dining cars and one second class, six dining cars in all.

I hope this helps.

M636C

[PBenham]

If by diner you're referring to the car that generally seated 36 at linen covered tables rather than coffee shop/lunch counter type cars the maximum would generally be two.   In one specific case, the Twentieth Century Limited, the usual procedure, unless there was an unusually light psgr load, would be to run two diners w/ the dining room ends of the cars adjacent to each other and, after the evening meal was served, us the two cars (they had wider than normal end vestibules) as a two car mid-train lounge.   This in addition to a lounge in the observation car at the rear and another in the dormitory car at the head end.   This wasn,t known world wide as the ultimate in rail luxury w/o a good reason!

The consist jimrice describes applies to the 1938 Century. In 1948, Pullman-Standard delivered a twin unit diner. One car was a Dorm/Kitchen car, the other was all dining space. IC, PRR, Burlington, Great Northern, Northern Pacific, Union Pacific and Southern Pacific bought very similar cars,too. Amtrak to my knowledge did not retain the surviving CB&Q, GN, NP or SP twin units. PRRs lasted well into the 70's on the Congressional. IC's also lasted for a while under Amtrak, too. Amtrak did not HEP any of the survivors, rats.

[BR60103]

I have a table showing some recent Canadian consists.

Baggage/2-3 coaches/dome/3 sleepers/dome/diner/3 sleepers/(7 more sleepers-unusual) /dome/diner/3 sleepers/dome-obs.

The dome cars have a snack bar in them.

A smaller train (Chaleur) had baggage/2 coaches/dome/2 sleepers/diner/sleeper.

In Britain, it was common to have separate kitchen cars and use open coaches as diners. Often the kitchen car would separate a first class and a second or third class coach. The LNER made 3 and 5-unit articulated cars in this formation.

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

SCL and its predecessors often ran their Florida trains, especially the Florida Special, with two diners during the peak winter season.

[Anonymous]

Thank you to everyone here who has replied to my question.  I believe I have learned more knowledge about diner cars than most people could learn in a life time. 

Based on your answers provided, I have got more questions here. 

1.      Which situation is more common?  Is it a train carrying two diner cars or is it a train carrying a diner and a lounge car?

        The reason I am asking is because I have never heard of a lounge car before and did not know it was existed. 

2. Are diner cars and lounge cars sharing the same exterior structure (although their functions are a little different)?   

3. What is a dormitory car?  Can someone explain its structure and function? 

        Again, I have never heard of this type of car. 

[Anonymous]

Tavern Cars are for those who wish to smoke, drink and conduct business in luxury away from the coach passengers. Today Lounge cars encourage everyone to socialize and have a good view of the passing scenery. You might not want to introduce young children to these cars just yet. Call em club cars and you will be pretty close without going into the vices.

Dorm cars are for the train crew to rest in on really long haul trains. Trains dont like to waste tonnage on non-revenue cars but they had them availible.

One diner per car usually in front of the sleepers and behind the coaches. So that the aroma of cooking food will encourage business. Also it kept the coach passengers from trooping thru the more exclusive sleeper spaces.

The exterior is not important.

But the exterior got washed. No one wants a dirty passenger train.

Some trains like the PRR Broadway Limited in the late 40's had TWO diners working back to back so that they can seat alot of people in one and have a big staff cooking away in lots of space in the other. These cars usually had full width doorways between them for the best in safety and automatic operation.

Wartime Troop trains had thier own kitchen cars staffed and run by the troops themselves. I think it was one Kitchen car to every 5 troop cars.

I dont know what diner cars offer today in way of food, but back in the post war days food was quite good and plentiful. Some railroads would generate a menu based on regional specialties. Everything probably was availible within a schedule with certain times of the day set aside for meals. Night time everyone was asleep and the Diner staff probably slept on tables pushed together or in the Dorm car. Back in those days 24/7 fast living was not important.

A basic long distance train consist will be:

Baggage and head end express

Mail

Coaches

Diner

Sleepers

Tavern and Observations/business.

Shorter runs would have a car that served drinks, coffee and snacks etc in a bar like setting where there may not be adequate time to sit down and eat a fully prepared meal. I remember this service on the British Intercity of the late 80's and they had the "Drink car" in the middle of the train between the 1st class and 2nd where everyone can get to it. The coffee was quite good.

With that in mind, I go fix pancakes now.

Cheers.

[rrandb]

Back in the days when I was young my grandfather Linus would take us boys to the station to watch the SO train pull in and they would switch out the "diner" car. It was always the close behind the engine with only baggage cars or dorm in between.. There were never any revenue cars to avoid any switching moves with passengers onboard. Overnight they would clean, stock, and service it as needed and pick it up the next morning for the opposite direction train. It was early in the morning so as to be ready for breakfast.
 The "club/loungr" car stayed on and provided libations and food for those still hungry for more of either. It had three attendants if I remember correctly. A bartender, a waiter, and a third man who was cook/ second bartender/ second waiter depending on demand. I have enjoyed many a mile with a soothing cockail and plesant conversation in square end, round end and once even a porch style/heavyweight observation type "club" cars.Some of the best conversations were with the staff afhter the other passengers had gone to bed. There was no closing time at this bar at least untill you reached your destination.

[daveklepper]

As I may have noted elsewhere, the New Haven often ran both a grille car and a dining car on its most heavily used Shoreline New York - Boston trains.   The grille car's menu was simplified, people sat in pairs facing the center aisle on sideways tables except for one normal pair of four-seaters at the end opposite the kitchen, but one menue item was a New Haven specialty sold in both cars: Boston Boiled Scrod (a fish).   The idea was that coach passengers would generally patronize the grille car and the parlor car passenger the full and more pricey diner.   But no forced segreation.   Generally the New Haven ran with the parlors up front and the coaches at the rear.   With one meal service car, it was usually between the parlor cars and the coaches, but with two they could run together or be located wihtin the coach and parlor sections.

[Anonymous]

I have some questions about the Observation Car (locate at the very end of the train). 

I believe observation cars are equipped with very luxury things and are the most expensive cars a train can have.  Dose one has to pay a much higher fee to ride in an obs car? 

Are observation cars usually equipped with a small kitchen/diner inside? 

Is it common to have a kitchen/diner car attached in front of an observation car? 

[daveklepper]

Observation cars came in several variaties.  The lounge and observation areas, which could include the entire car except possibly for an attendant's serving area, were non-revenue space, not assigned seating,a nd could be used by anyone entering the car, to relax, have a change of location, socialize, enjoy drinks and light snacks, and watch the passing scenery.  On many railroads these cars were patronized by First Class Passengers only, those riding parlor cars or sleeping cars.   But on the Seaboard Airline Railroad, and I think the Kansas City Southern, as two examples, they were open to all passengers, and this was true as the streamliners used the tracks of other railroads, the RF&P and the PRR in the case of the Seaboard.   This arrangement was true of the roundf-end streamliners. the squared-off blut-end type, and the old fashioned open platform observation cars.

 

Many of these cars had two or three private rooms that were not part of the lounge area.   On some railroads these were day drawing rooms, that could be reserved by several people traveling together, and usually but not always the ticket price was the normal per-preson parlor car first-class rate but sometimes a room surcharge was added.   A partition between two rooms could be opened to furnish a large room for more people travling together.  On trains with sleepers, like the California Zephyr, Broadway Limited, these rooms were Master Bedrooms or equivalent, usually with shower, and the room charges were higher than those for a normal bedroom or roomette.  

 

On rare occasions the lounge was sold as revenue seating, but on most railroads this would be an unusal circumstance.   In the last days of the Southern Pacific's Coat Dayllight this was the practice, however.

[BR60103]

Canadian Pacific/VIA's Park cars (sleeper buffet-lounge dome observation) (1 DR 3 DB 24 seat dome, lounge) were available to all sleeper passengers at no extra fee. I don't think the charge for sleeping space was different from the rest of the train. (discount for all-night noise?)

Actually 2 lounges -- the "bullet" lounge at the back end and the "mural" lounge under the dome with a painting of the park that the car for named for.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you to everyone who has given so much valuable information.  But because I am building a model train with my nephew, I still need to know if it is a common practice to connect a diner car together with an observation car. 

To ask the same question another way: 

What type of car is most commonly attached in front of a luxury observation car? 

I am referring to the observation car at the very end of the train, not just any lounge car. 

[wjstix]

The diner often was the divider in the train between classes of passengers. A typical overnight passenger train might have a consist of Baggage - Coach - Coach - Diner - Pullman - Pullman - Observation for example. The diner was open to both coach customers and the 'first class' Pullman customers. I don't know if a coach rider was strictly speaking forbidden from going beyond the diner back to the observation car, but on most roads wanted them kept in the coaches. (Kinda like buying a bleacher ticket to the ballpark and trying to 'wander' into the box seats behind home plate.)

A lounge car might be anywhere in the train - the MDC "Pullman Palace" cars from the 1890's included a combination baggage/lounge car that would run at the front of the train. (Lounge cars sometimes were smoking cars by the way.) BTW Obs. cars could be many types, including a cafe-observation car (like the Rivarossi heavyweight model) or an Obs. could have Pullman sleeping sections too. Some Obs cars were effectively lounge cars with a bar etc.

One interesting model railroading thing is that many trains shared a dining car. An overnight train might leave a city in the evening and have a diner in the consist to serve dinner to the passengers, then during the night it might drop the car off somewhere en route to be resupplied and picked up by another train going the other direction to be used for breakfast in the morning. Could create some interesting model train switching possibilities.

[csmith9474]

Thank you to everyone who has given so much valuable information.  But because I am building a model train with my nephew, I still need to know if it is a common practice to connect a diner car together with an observation car. 

To ask the same question another way: 

What type of car is most commonly attached in front of a luxury observation car? 

I am referring to the observation car at the very end of the train, not just any lounge car. 

That depends on the particular passenger train. On a train such as Central of Georgia's "Man O War", the observation was behind a coach. On trains such as the "Super Chief" there was a sleeper ahead of the observation. On Southern Pacific's "Sunset Limited", the train had a blunt end 10-6 (technically not an observation car) on the rear. This is why it is important to know exactly which train we are talking about here.

If you are modeling a free-lanced passenger train, it would be up to you how you wanted everything consisted (based, of course, on prototype practices).

[Anonymous]

lukehu, a dining car would not be a logical candidate to be next to a luxury observation car because of economics.  Dining cars must make a profit or off they go, so they are positioned in a train to attract as many customers as possible.  Thus, a single dining car would function most profitably between the coaches and Pullmans.

A luxury observation car would not be found at the end of an all coach train; not a wise use of expensive equipment, as coach passengers are just not affluent. To make maximum use of that luxury car, it has to have first class type cars ahead of it, parlor cars or sleeping cars.

But with a short three car 'Oriental/American Express' type luxury train, the diner would of course be placed where it was most convenient and would end up in the middle next to the observation car. The owner would probably end up in bankruptcy!

Art

[daveklepper]

When the Seaboard Air Line's Silver Meteor was an all-coach train, it DID carry an observation-lounge car at the rear.   And kept it when sleepers were added between the diner and the rear.   When the Southern Railway's Southerner was an all-coach train, it DID carry an observation-lounge at the rear.   But dropped it in favor of a mid-train lounge when sleepers were added.   Both trains as originally equipped were built by Budd and te observation cars were rouind-end.

 

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A couple of points:  The Silver Meteor was unusual in that the sleeping cars were placed ahead of the diner, keeping the observation car accessible to coach passengers.  Dining car service as a whole was rarely, if ever, profitable.  It was mostly an amenity and could be viewed as a loss leader.

[daveklepper]

Subject to operting conditions you are absolutlely correct about the Silver Meteor.  But there were, of course, operating conditions that occsionally disturbed the normal distribution of equipment northbound, including occasions where sleepers and coaches were intermingled because of the desire to cut switching time northbound when the westcoast and eastcoast sections were combined at Wildwood.  But they always did keep the obs on the rear and it was never disfigured by modifications with a rear diaphragm for midtrain operation.  At least not in my experience.  I really loved riding that train.  But the ACL had the option of my being served in a dining car by a friend from my youth, Steward Jim Masters.   A tough choice!   The food was tops on both.

[jimrice4449]

It was frequently the pratice to run a lounge car adjacent to the diner.   If rhe train carried sleeping cars it would frequently be a lounge/sleeper.   The lounge would be run coupled to the dining room end of the diner.   This permitted customers waiting for seating to wait in the aisle next to the kitchen at one end of the diner and in the lounge at the other end.  On trains carrying coaches and sleepers the lounge would generally be at the sleepr part of the train since first class customers would be more likely to partake of beverage service while waiting than the coach psgrs waiting in the aisle next to the kitchen

[Anonymous]

It was my understanding that they would place the Diner just about ahead of the majority of the people on the train.. if such a thing was possible.

So that the aromas of cooking meals will generate demand and revenue.

[daveklepper]

And the reason the New Haven often ran the grille and dining cars together on a long train was that if there was a line for service in one car, a hungry person might have better luck in the second of the two cars.