CN´s Super Continental

[Anonymous]

Everybody keeps on talking just about CP´s Canadian. But what about CN´s Super Continental? OK, when he was introduced in 1955, he didn´t have dome cars like the CP Canadian, but I heard that he was equal to the Canadian when it comes to service and comfort. And when CP turned their interests away from the passenger business in the 60ies, most people were of the opinion that the Super Continental was better, because CN was still trying to make an effort to stay in passenger business and provide good service. And why didn´t CN purchase dome cars already in 1955 but waited until 1964? Was it because of the same safety reasons the SP thought about (rocks could fall on the glass and kill the passengers)? And it would be great if somebody could give me a 1955 or late 50ies consist of the Super Continental, because I didn´t find one while searching in the web. What / how many cars of the 1955 Super Continental have been modernized 6 wheel truck Heavyweights? What was the maximum of cars the 50ies Super Continental could reach? Was it ever pulled by CN´s streamlined 4-8-4´s?

[passengerfan]

The fifties/ Sixties SUPER CONTINENTAL were among the finest trains to operate in North America. When the trains became Dome equipped with the purchase of six former Milwaukee Road domes surplus to that road with the discontinuance of the OLYMPIAN HIAWATHA. The SUPER CONTINENTAL operated Domes at first only between Edmonton, Alta and Vancouver and the secondary PANORAMA operated these domes between Winnipeg and Vancouver. Later when the PANORAMA was discontinued the SUPER CONTINENTAL operated the domes betweeen Winnipeg and Vancouver.
In its final years of service it often ran to twenty or more cars, I have some consists from different years will have to dig them out and post them for you. It was one of my truly favorite trains.
CN Prime Rib in my personal opinion was one of the finest meals served on rails and always apart of the SUPER CONTINENTAL menu.
The trains coach section featured a younger crowd while first class featured older travellers or young businessmen. .

[cnw4001]

I think the Canadian gets more exposure because CP had a higher publicity profile. I can envision shots of the Canadian in the Rockies with their Silver and Red cars and don't recall the competition showing up much. Of course the Canadian's image persists in the form of VIA's Silver and Blue using refurbished CP cars, among others.

Dale

[PBenham]

The Super Continental was created under a much tighter set of financial guidelines, than CP had established at the time it ordered the Canadian. CN was under a mandate only to provide service for the communities it served in a cost effective manner. There might have been officers in CN's passenger marketing department that no doubt lobbied for a fancier train. First, they were under a "buy Canadian" edict, that meant that canadian carbuilders had preference for new car orders. No canadian car builder had agreements with ACF, Budd or Pullman to build domes in 1954, nor, had they shown any interest in doing so. The Canadian Pacific decided to pay the duty on their domes, rather than have a canadian builder pay for the right to build domes under license in Canada. CP wanted their train for the summer of 1955, and had made a conscious business based decision to buy american built domes. They also wanted prompt delivery of their new cars, which might have had to wait well into 1957, so that a Canadian builder could have ironed out a workable licensce agreement with ACF, Budd or Pullman. CP's cars, at least on the outside were off-the-shelf designs, which Budd had some experience building. They also had the needed tooling to build the cars using experience gained on the California Zephyr's cars built starting in 1947. CN knew they would have to wait for domes, and decided to pass on them at that time. The decline of passenger train patronage in the late 50's and early 60's made domes available for the Super Continental at a fraction of the price CP had paid less than a decade before. There were also clearence concerns for CN until these were addressed in the early-mid 60's. Domes were initally restricted to operating Vancouver BC-Edmonton AB for this reason and a smaller fleet of domes on hand. Otherwise, the Super Continental was quite comfortable and provided the wide range of accommodations CN felt their passengers wanted. The train proved popular with passengers that didn't mind a domeless train, and would not have paid the higher fares required to ride a fancier train. The cars CN ordered in late 1953, for 1954-6 delivery were also used on the Ocean Limited (Montreal QP/PQ-Halifax NS) and the International Limited (Toronto ON-Chicago) with GTW. The cars also popped up on the LV-CN Maple Leaf, New York (Penn Station), Philadelphia-Toronto ON and other trains.

[BR60103]

The SuperContinental cars were painted in the same green and black as the rest of CN's cars, so the train wasn't as distinctive as the Canadian. As such, they were interchangeable with the rst of CN's fleet.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the info. But still some of my questions are open: When introduced in 1955, was the train made of all new equippment or did it also feature some modernized (6 wheel truck) Heavyweights? When did the last modernized Heavyweights leave the rails on CN? Was it ever pulled by steam locos in the beginning, more specifically by the streamlined U-4-g 4-8-4´s? If so, on which parts of the route? And when have the Skyview Sleeper Lounge Observation cars (former MILW Skytops) been added to the Super? What type of cars have the Super Continental´s observation cars been before the Skyviews arrived? And if anybody of you rode the Super Continental between 1955 and 1978, just feel free to post it here if you have a interesting story or an opinion to tell.

[PBenham]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeLuxe

Thanks for the info. But still some of my questions are open: When introduced in 1955, was the train made of all new equippment or did it also feature some modernized (6 wheel truck) Heavyweights? When did the last modernized Heavyweights leave the rails on CN? Was it ever pulled by steam locos in the beginning, more specifically by the streamlined U-4-g 4-8-4´s? If so, on which parts of the route? And when have the Skyview Sleeper Lounge Observation cars (former MILW Skytops) been added to the Super? What type of cars have the Super Continental´s observation cars been before the Skyviews arrived? And if anybody of you rode the Super Continental between 1955 and 1978, just feel free to post it here if you have a interesting story or an opinion to tell.

Did the Super Continental use rebuilt heavyweights? Yes, mostly in the high tourist season but only up to about 1960. They might have used heavyweight diners on second sections, or for groups. (see Official Guides, or Timetables for the 6/56-9/60 era,and look for 12 section 1 or 2 bedroom, lounge tourist sleeper listings) The Super Continental would have gotten U2 or U3 4-8-4s or U1f 4-8-2s, only if the new FP9s had fallen down en route. The streamlined U4s were confined to the Montreal- Toronto-Sarnia/Windsor routes, as they would not have been suitable for much of the Super Continental's route. But, that having been said, I cannot rule out the possibility of a 6400 doing a relief stint out of Toronto, or Montreal.( if, say the FP9s on a late #2 were turned back at Capreol on the next #1). Finally, the ex-Milwaukee domes went north late in 1963, were re-conditioned, and were running by June,1964. (See CN's May, 1964 system Timetable, or The May or June, 1964 Guide listings.

[passengerfan]

CN Modernised (actually streamlined) a number of heavyweight tourist sleeping cars for the startup of the Super Continental.

Canadian National inspite of being government owned was always mindful of what chief rival Canadian Pacific was up to. When the latter announced it was streamlining passenger services in 1954-55 Canadian National was quick to follow suit. The difference was Canadian National would need many more streamlined cars than the Canadian Pacific due to the fact they operated a far more extensive network of routes than the Canadian Pacific did. The Canadian Pacific purchased their new fleet of cars from one manufacturer Budd while Canadian National placed orders with Canadian Car & Foundry, National Steel Car, and Pullman Standard. All of the new Canadian National Sleeping cars were purchased from Pullman Standard with that manufacturer delivering the completed cars to CN except for Mattresses and Bedding, which were supplied, by a Canadian manufacturer. The Dining, Lounge and Sleeper combinations were delivered with only the sleeping car part of the cars in place. The Dining and Lounge facilities were added in Canada after the cars were delivered to the CN.
In late 1951 and most of 1952 the CN undertook a program of modernizing 14 Section Tourist Sleeping cars. This included installing larger Thermopane @ windows, new Air Conditioning, new interior paint and carpeting, new mattresses, and new window shades. These modernized cars were completed as follows by CN shops and assigned to the CONTINENTAL between Montreal- Toronto and Vancouver along with 14 Section unmodified cars.

DECEMBER 1951

2250 POINTE PLATON

JANUARY 1952

2247 POINTE LA NIM

MARCH 1952

2249 POINTE AU PIC

2255 POINT WOLFE

APRIL 1952


2253 POINTE SAPIN

JUNE 1952

2248 POINTE PARENT

2251 POINT PRIM

JULY 1952

2246 POINTE NAVARRE

AUGUST 1952

2252 POINTE DE ROCHE

Beginning in December 1953 the Canadian National shops were busy once again rebuilding 14 Section Tourist Sleeping cars into streamlined 14-Section Tourist Sleeping cars. These cars were being rebuilt in anticipation of the new cars from Pullman Standard for the SUPER CONTINENTAL. The Cars were completed as follows.

DECEMBER 1953

2242 POINTE LEBEL

FEBRUARY 1954

2235 POINT CROSS

MARCH 1954

2233 POINT COMFORT

MAY 1954

2227 POINTE BLEUE

JUNE 1954

2230 POINT CARRE

JULY 1954

2229 POINTE CALUMET

2231 POINTE DUCHENE

SEPTEMBER 1954

2232 POINT CLAIRE

OCTOBER 1954

2234 POINT CREWE

NOVEMBER 1954

2226 POINTE BASSE

DECEMBER 1954

2241 POINTE LANCE

The SUPER CONTINENTAL began service in April 1955 using the 11 streamlined 14 Section Tourist Sleeping cars and the 9 modernized cars of this type from the CONTINENTAL.
By early 1956 the CN was aware that additional streamlined 14 Section tourist sleeping cars were needed for the SUPER CONTINENTAL. This would return the modernized 14 Section tourist sleeping cars to the CONTINENTAL.
The CN streamlined 11 additional heavyweight 14-Section tourist sleeping cars as follows for assignment to the SUPER CONTINENTAL. This gave the CN 22 streamlined 14-Section Tourist Sleeping cars and 9 modernized 14 Section Tourist Sleeping cars.

FEBRUARY 1956

2228 POINTE DE BUTE

MARCH 1956

2237 POINTE AU GAUL

APRIL 1956

2243 POINT MAY

JUNE 1956

2244 POINTE MICHAUDE

MARCH 1957

2245 POINTE DES MONTS

APRIL 1957

2238 POINT GARDINER

2239 POINT GREY

MAY 1957

2240 POINT IDEAL

2254 POINT TUPPER

JUNE 1957

2225 POINT ACONI

2236 POINT EDWARD

In 1969 the SUPER CONTINENTAL became the first train in North America to offer coach passengers three types of accommodations. There was standard coach the new Day-Niter Coaches and the CN " I " series 22 Duplex Roomette Sleeping cars became available for Coach fare plus a modest space charge. This was long after the 14 Section Tourist Sleeping cars were retired from the SUPER CONTINENTAL.

The former Milwaukee Road Skytops were never assigned to the Super Continental as eight would have been necessary for daily service. Initialy the Skytops were assigned to the Ocean, Scotian and later Chaleur. The final assign,ent for these cars in CN xervice was on the Skeena between Jasper and Prince Rupert.
Transport Canada ruled these cars could no longer haul passengers due to their lack of emergency exits and they were withdrawwn from service.

[Anonymous]

thanks for the interesting info!
to passengerfan: did you already dig out the Super Continental consists? it´s enough if you can just give me a late 50ies consist and then a late 60ies or early 70ies consist.

[Anonymous]

From 1960 through 1968 I lived in Oregon. My mother had family in Winnipeg and we took the train to visit them about every other year. We usually travelled on the Empire Builder, the Western Star, or the Canadian. Once, however, we took the Super Continental. I remember that my mother was impressed at one dinner in the coffee shop car where we were served fresh salmon. She remarked that the salmon served in the Canadian's "Dining Room Car" had been canned.

I took the CN one last time, when I came to Michigan for college with a stopover for 1 day in Winnipeg. I took the Super Continental from Vancouver to Winnipeg and the Panorama from Winnipeg to Toronto. The trip was very enjoyable.

I detested the ex-Milwaukee Road super domes, however. I didn't think that the view, especially the view forward, was nearly as good as on Budd's 24-seat domes. I've often wondered how the view from the Empire Builder's full-length dome for Pullman passengers or the Santa Fe's Big Domes compared with the 24-seaters.

[passengerfan]

To DeLuxe
The following was a typical summer 1969 consist from Montreal to Vancouver of the SUPER CONTINENTAL. Remember at this time the train ran as Montreal/Vancouver trains and a Toronto/Vancouver train s during the summer and Xmas season..

6526 GMD FP9A 1, 750 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

6619 GMD F9B 1,750 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

6627 GMD FP9A 1,750 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

9227 Baggage Car

2050 SOUTH FIELD 18-Roomette Sleeping Car (Operated as Crew Dormitory Car)

5545 76-Revenue Seat Coach

5567 76-Revenue Seat Coach

759 24-seat Cafe 18-Seat Lounge Car

2008 IONA 24-Duplex Roomette Sleeper(Ltweight 6-wheel trucks)

1110 EASTPORT 4-Section 8-Duplex Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1122 EXCELSIOR 4-Section 8-Duplex Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

2077 MABOU RIVER 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1301 48-Seat Dining Car

2313 BONHEUR Buffet 18-Seat Cocktail Lounge 24- Seat Lounge Car (Modernized Heavyweight)

553 LAKE NIPPISING 24-Seat Parlor Buffet Car (Modernized Heavyweight)
(Montreal - Kapuskasing)

1007 WHITE PLAINS 8-Section 1-Double Bedroom Buffet 16-Seat Dinette Car
(Montreal - Winnipeg)

5526 76-Seat Coach

5449 76-Seat Coach

Hope this helps.

ForestRump. Having experienced many different dome my personal preference was the Budd 24-seat short dome. The UP domes although similar used curved glass which did not lend itself as well to photography. The seating in these domes was more like a loveseat than the seats found in the Budd domes and i felt not as comfortable.
The Milwaukee domes offered very poor forward visibility while the Budd full length domes of the AT&SF and GN did not offer much if any forward visibility improvement over the Milwaukee Domes. Visibility to the sides was much better on the Budd full length domes.

[Anonymous]

Did the Super never have a "proper" observation car? just a normal sleeper or coach on the end?

[PBenham]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeLuxe

Did the Super never have a "proper" observation car? just a normal sleeper or coach on the end?

Thanks for the 411, gang![8D] The Super Continental never had an observation car listed in their "Official Guide" listings or their time tables(that I have). I suspect that it was because cars were switched in and out at Capreol, ON; Winnipeg, MB; Saskatoon, SK; and Edmonton, AB.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DeLuxe

Did the Super never have a "proper" observation car? just a normal sleeper or coach on the end?

it carried a Milwaukwee Road observation

[passengerfan]

The CN Observations pictured the former Milwaukee Road observations were assigned to the CN OCEAN, SCOTIAN and CHALEUR originally later they operated in the CN SKEENA between Jasper and Prince Rupert.

[agentatascadero]

I rode the SUPER many times in the late 60's, during the Red, White and Blue era, when CN promoted passenger service.  It was extremely exciting, for that depressing era.  The SUPER ran seperate Montreal/Toronto sections during peak travel.  The trains ran 10-12 Pullmans, multiple diners/lounges and around 20 cars, for each section, while the CANADIAN over on CP, ran about 8-10 cars in one section.  Heady times indeed, as the bottom was dropping out in the US.  I think there may have been a time, perhaps into the 50's, when the SUPER ran with observation cars, of the blunt, enclosed, heavyweight variety.  The SUPER was never the regular assignment for the ex-Milwaukee observation cars.  Now, I regret that I didn't "suck it up" and continue to ride the CANADIAN then, simply because of the vastly superior scenery on the CP compared to CN, even if the CP crews were hostile and the train half empty.  Food?  Late 60's take CN, any other time, CP no question was as good as anything on wheels.  Regards rebuilt heavyweights: it seemed half the train was, many of the Pullmans, the lounges, and some diners, and probably all the headend cars heavyweights.  Quite nicely done too.  AA

[vtr402]

I got to ride the Super Continental only once, in June 1971, Montreal - Edmonton.  My parents very kindly planned that leg of an amazing vacation with my railroad interest in mind.  I wonder if the rebuilt heavyweights were really all gone by then, because I slept in an upper berth in a car with very many sections all in a row on both sides of the aisle, nothing like the 4-8-4 and 6-4-6 cars - I'm pretty sure it was either a 12-1 or a 14 section car.   This was probably the most comfortable rail sleeping experience I ever had.  My poor parents were shoehorned into an ex MILW 10-6 double bedroom (is Vermillion River a possible name?) and felt clausrtophobic.  By day we hung out in the distinctly undercrowded coaches at the front of the train.  I don't remember the meals as stand-outs, but they certainly weren't anything to complain about.  A later ride (1975) on the CP Montreal - Thunder Bay was certainly spectacular, between Lake Superior scenery, the Dome car, and the replacement of an ailing FP-7 (or FP-9 - I was an ALCO nut and didn't really care) with C-424 4239 in Chapleau - but the one meal I ate in the buffet section of the dome-coach seemed rather skimpy to my teenaged metabolism.   Back to CN - there was a solarium-ended sleeper-lounge close to my parents' 10-6 where we snacked on various hors d'oevres departing Montreal.  I suspect those cars (maybe 2Cpt-2DBR?)served as tail cars in the original scheme of things, but it was definitely mid-train in '71.  Just imagine my yearning on arrival in Edmonton, seeing the Super Dome on an adjacent track ready to be cut into the consist, and I had to get off the train... Still, it was a great start to a most spectacular 4 week tour of the Rockies and the Pacific Northwest.  My biggest regrets were not getting more pictures of the then-new M-636s on the CN and missing the SP&S ALCOs in Portland... but I railfanned the Spiral Tunnels, chased H-16-44s in the Fernie Coal Basin, saw UP DD-40s at Green River, went to Promontory Point...Thanks, Dad for planning it, and Mom for going along with it!

[Los Angeles Rams Guy]

I also had an opportunity to ride CN's Super Continental back in the summer of '72 from Sioux Lookout, ON to Ghost River camp and back for a family fishing trip.  It was a pretty decent ride.  I would often wander up to the mainline when we were in our cabin to try and catch some CN action.