Scooping water into a tender

[Anonymous]

I have heard that some railroads developed a method of "scooping" water into the tender while in motion as a means of saving time by reducing water stops. Years ago someone told me that there were instances of hoboes frozen to death by getting doused with water while riding a car that was close to the tender of a train engaged in scooping water. Any truth to this or is this another urban legend?

[jimrice4449]

Probably urban legend although it's theoretically possible. When the scoop was lowered at speed there was a lot of spray all over the place and the "blind" between the tender and first car was a prefered spot for hobos to ride.

[joseph2]

I read a story in Railroad Magazine about hobos freezing.If the tender would overfill,water would run out over the back where the hobos rode.

[Anonymous]

What were the rails fastened to where a water trough was. Obviously there were no ties running from rail to rail?

I cant picture this.

[daveklepper]

Stub ties on each side of the trough were joined to the trough which was strong enough to take the horizontal loads and so rigidly connect the stub ties on each side.

[PBenham]

Herron video's New York Central video has close-up shots of NYC's pans at Wende, NY on the water level main. The ties were placed on either side of the trough, all of which was supported by a concrete base, with holes for spikes, which held the rails and ties in place, as well as the bolts/fasteners that held the pans in place. Water moved through piping running from a lineside tank (which lasted well into the 80's, not owned by PC or Conrail, however) To prevent freezing of the water in the eight month winters we still have, there was a boiler house to provide steam to be piped in to the pans to prevent freezing. It also pumped the water from a well up into the storage tank or the pans. They had to withstand the force of the water being pushed by a scoop moving at track speed, 79 MPH, in 1946. Before that, they were instructed to fill only PT tenders with relief valves at no more than 80! Other views can be seen in NYC's publicity film on the steam locomotive, available(?) through Pentrex but not yet in DVD, to my knowledge. The Herron Video is available in DVD/R. As for anyone being frozen while riding on the back of a tender, strictly an urban legend. Hobos being killed by flying debris when they stood too close to the tracks? That did happen.

[Anonymous]

The soaking was a risk if the crew didn't lift the scoop quickly enough. I've seen photos of trains over here using the same system in which the first coach is getting an impromptu shower...

I recall reading a piece about these a while ago in which the author mentioned travelling in the first coach of a train that was using these troughs. Usually the first coach would be either a full brake or a brake end (baggage or coach/baggage) with the "brake" end at the front. On this particular run the passenger section had ended up at the front of the train, and there was apparently a miniature tidal wave through the gangway as the loco picked up water! The same system was even fitted to some early diesel locos with steam heat boilers - the Class 40 had water scoops and others may well have had them too.

[Eddystone]

Dave, here is a link to an article on one of the Pennsylvania Railroads track pans in Wilmore Pa. In the article there is mentioned a hobo freezing to death also.

http://jimquest.com/writ/trains/pans/wilmore1.htm

[mersenne6]

I think this is the story Railroading Brit was referring to:

from Railway Review - 26 August 1893

"One of the Pennsylvania fast trains that do good by bringing Philadelphia
within suburban time of New York, remarks the New York Sun, is known to the
railroad people as the "7:30," because it leaves Philadelphia at that hour
in the morning. It runs without a stop, and takes water on the run out of a
long trough between the rails near Edgley. A scoop is let down from beneath
the tender into the trough. Yesterday morning the first coach of the train
contained about thirty passengers. Some of them were women...Well, no one was
thinking about water trough or the water until suddenly the front door of the
coach next to the engine was burst in by a broad stream of water, like that
thrown by a water tower at a fire. In just one second every man and woman
was standing, and in another they were all sitting, sitting on the backs of
their seats to keep their feet out of the stream of water that rushed along
the car floor with such force as to roll the isle carpet up into a wet wad
which landed against the rear door and dammed the flood there, and also
prevented the door from being opened. No one had the remotest idea what was
going on. The passengers were all getting a shower bath and the car was
rapidly being converted into a pond. Ther were a great many cries of alarm,
but no one offered any advice, for a huge stream of water pouring thru the
front door of a lighting train on a cloudless day offered no suggestion to
even the most expert advice giver. It was very lively while it lasted, but
was all over in 20 seconds. Then the water drained out of the car and the
passengers began making investigations. The water tender had been filled
before the end of the trough had been reached, and while the scoop was still
down. The force of the water had knocked off the cover of the manhole in
the center of the rear end of the tender, and the speed of the engine directed
the stream from the manhole against the front door and the force was so great
as to knock in the door. When the scoop was lifted up the shower ceased.
Then the people began mopping themselves with handkerchiefs and some said
they thought it was funny. They were the ones who sat in the rear seats."

[Mark300]

The technique of 'scooping water on the fly' was developed in the late 19th century as trains ran faster and new methods of watering engines were developed. This is a widely known fact in railroading cirlcles.....many tenders were rigged with scoops. Great diligence by the Fireman was necessary or as the above posts indicate, a lot of things could go wrong.

Usually found on roads having high speed passenger lines, slower freight lines utilized the standard water tower. Track pans were featured on the Pennsy, NYC, Reading, B&O, Jersey Central and a host of other roads.

Utilized in other parts of the world, the Flying Scotsman for example. used track pans to scoop water as well.

Dramatic technique and there are some great photos around from many different roads.

Mark

[tsgtbob]

I have a copy of the book "The Locomotive Up-To-Date" from 1929 that states in the chapter on tender design "take care to include releif valves in tenders destined for taking water on the fly. It has been reported that, when using the water scoop, and having the hatch cover on the tender latched, damage to the sides and top of the water space can be bulged out from the force of the water entering the tender."
YIKES!!!
A good friend has a copy of the Altoona Mirror from the 40s that has a story about the local coroner being called to the PRR property at least once a month to pronounce dead, some bum who was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

[LEEJO114]

I can remember many stories that my uncle would tell when I was in grade school. One that I remember is about picking up water west bound on the Pennsylvania from Crestline Ohio. He said that the person responsible for water and coal failed to lug-down the water hatch on the tender. When they hit the trough the water went up through the hatch and knocked out windows two cars back from the tender. He would drive the K-4 about at top speed and cover the 100 miles from Crestline to the Indiana line in 1 hour and 1 second. He said that he had to pickup time that was lost from Allentown to Crestline. I'm sure that it created quite a roostertail.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mersenne6

I think this is the story Railroading Brit was referring to:

from Railway Review - 26 August 1893

"One of the Pennsylvania fast trains that do good by bringing Philadelphia
within suburban time of New York, remarks the New York Sun, is known to the
railroad people as the "7:30," because it leaves Philadelphia at that hour
in the morning. It runs without a stop, and takes water on the run out of a
long trough between the rails near Edgley. A scoop is let down from beneath
the tender into the trough. Yesterday morning the first coach of the train
contained about thirty passengers. Some of them were women...Well, no one was
thinking about water trough or the water until suddenly the front door of the
coach next to the engine was burst in by a broad stream of water, like that
thrown by a water tower at a fire. In just one second every man and woman
was standing, and in another they were all sitting, sitting on the backs of
their seats to keep their feet out of the stream of water that rushed along
the car floor with such force as to roll the isle carpet up into a wet wad
which landed against the rear door and dammed the flood there, and also
prevented the door from being opened. No one had the remotest idea what was
going on. The passengers were all getting a shower bath and the car was
rapidly being converted into a pond. Ther were a great many cries of alarm,
but no one offered any advice, for a huge stream of water pouring thru the
front door of a lighting train on a cloudless day offered no suggestion to
even the most expert advice giver. It was very lively while it lasted, but
was all over in 20 seconds. Then the water drained out of the car and the
passengers began making investigations. The water tender had been filled
before the end of the trough had been reached, and while the scoop was still
down. The force of the water had knocked off the cover of the manhole in
the center of the rear end of the tender, and the speed of the engine directed
the stream from the manhole against the front door and the force was so great
as to knock in the door. When the scoop was lifted up the shower ceased.
Then the people began mopping themselves with handkerchiefs and some said
they thought it was funny. They were the ones who sat in the rear seats."

Sounds like a very similar event, but the one I was talking about happened in Britain, and I'm not sure if the tender had overfilled - by the sounds of it in the case I mentioned it was simply water being splashed around by the scoop hitting the trough. Obviously it was a risk anywhere water troughs were used!