Union Pacific varnish questions

[passengerfan]

SP LARK and CASCADE both wore the two tone gray scheme as did the SAN FRANCISCO OVERLAND. The SFO was the favorite of the late Lucius Beebe and his numerous books reflect this. The UP did not really like the SFO competing with the CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO while the SP favored the SAN FRANCISCO OVERLAND and assigned the best equipment to it. UP for their part eventually assigned yelow cars to the SFO but by that time the train was only a shadow of its once great self. The SFO operated on a slower schedule and for many years carried cars from Oakland to Chicago and St. Louis and in its final years of operation was a Oakland - St. Louis operation. I think the fastest time of the SFO between Chicago and Oakland was about 48 hours compared to the 39-3/4 hours of the COSF. The SFO operated on about the same schedule as the Santa Fe SAN FRANCISCO CHIEF. In any case the slowest of the major trains between Chicago and San Francisco was the CALIFORNIA ZEPHYR.
Enough of my rambling going on about three hours sleep last night, insomnia my worst enemy as I grow old.

[daveklepper]

Wasn't the overnight SP Lark also in the same two-tone grey scheme? And the SP Cascade Limited?

[Anonymous]

I believe by Overland colors, the poster above means the 2 tone grey scheme, which was used on both heavyweight and modern cars on certain trains. UP, SP, and C&NW all supplied their own diners and I've seen pictures of UP trains with all modern coaches & sleepers with a heavyweight diner plus the older style baggage cars. The heavyweights appear to be 2 tone grey, but it's hard to tell from B&W photos and some may have been repainted yellow. Secondary trains did receive extra cars from both the UP yellow and SP silver and red general pools, but all of these I've seen were modern coaches or sleepers. I've read about a UP summertime only train called the National Parks Special that often ran with old heavyweight coaches, but I've never seen a good picture of it.

[daveklepper]

I think the Challenger as a name was dropped about a year before Amtrak (Amtrak day = 1 May 1971.) When I rode the CofLA in the Spring of 1970, Salt Lake City - LA, I did not see any reference to the Challenger in any timetable or train time display --if my memory is corrrect. Ditto the last day of operation, when I rode LA-Elgin IL.

Spring of 1970, the dome diner was still in service, but not on the last day of operation.

Both times City of LA and City of SF were combined east of Ogden. Also, the CofPortland got switched in somewhere.

[timz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by timz

I'm guessing you can't find one showing the Challenger running on its own schedule and the City of LA without coaches, at the same time.

Yes you can, it turns out-- in Summer 1959 the Challenger ran 15 minutes ahead of the City of LA, instead of the two-days-and-one-night schedule it had before. So no need for coaches on the City of LA, and it didn't have any that summer.

[timz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan


The new CHALLENGER now fully streamlined entered service May 20, 1954 on a daily schedule between Chicago and Los Angeles.
...On the same May 20, 1954 the introduction of the CHALLENGER permitted the CITY OF LOS ANGELES to become an extra fare all sleeping car train.

Like I said, the Challenger started in January 1954. I don't have that many UP timetables, but I'm guessing you can't find one showing the Challenger running on its own schedule and the City of LA without coaches, at the same time.

[passengerfan]

They began repainting the heavyweight cars as early as late 1946 and really went all out in 1947 and thereafter. The last train to enter service in Overland colors and the only CITY streamliner to ever wear Overeland colors was the CITY OF ST. LOUIS inaugurated June 2, 1946. Emphasis was placed on repainting these cars by the end of 1947 and all regularly assigned City of St. Louis cars were in the yellow by the beginning of 1948. But it was still not unusual to see a substitute car in the Overland colors on occasion until about 1951.
Offline cars were often leased by the UP such as Souhern Observations etc. in the early postwar years and it was one of the Southern streamlined observations that was destroyed in the wreck at Wyuta Wyoming on the rear of the CITY OF LOS ANGELES when it was rearended by the CITY OF SAN FRANCISCO along with a couple of new UP lightweight streamlined sleeping cars.

[Anonymous]

Still got one question:
When did UP start to paint their heavyweight cars in yellow color?
Have there ever been complete UP heavyweight passenger trains with all cars of the train painted in yellow?

[passengerfan]

CHALLENGER C&NW – UP trains 107-108 May 20, 1954 Chicago – Los Angeles daily each direction 2,299 miles 39 hours 45 minutes

Seeing the success of the all coach extra fare EL CAPITAN of the Santa Fe the Union Pacific decided to resurrect the CHALLENGER. This was the prewar Coach train derived from the depression that had been so successful before the war. The new CHALLENGER now fully streamlined entered service May 20, 1954 on a daily schedule between Chicago and Los Angeles. The new CHALLENGER was equipped with the latest in 44 Revenue seat Leg Rest Coaches with Dining and Lounge Cars. On the same May 20, 1954 the introduction of the CHALLENGER permitted the CITY OF LOS ANGELES to become an extra fare all sleeping car train. The operation of the CHALLENGER and CITY OF LOS ANGELES was nearly identical to the operation of the Santa Fe SUPER CHIEF and EL CAPITAN with all four trains operating on a fast 39-3/4 hour schedule between terminals. This was the fastest the CHALLENGER ever operated as the prewar train was operated on a far slower schedule.

INAUGURAL WESTBOUND CONSIST Leaving Chicago

5012A EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (C&NW)

5018B EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit (C&NW)

Above two units Chicago – Omaha only

935 EMD E8A 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

923B EMD E8B 2250 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

925B EMD E8B 2,250 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

5623 Baggage Car

PACIFIC WATERS 10-Roomette 6-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car (Crew Dormitory)

4812 48-Seat Dining Car

1517 24- Seat Tavern Lounge Bar 21- Seat Lounge Car

5415 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

5423 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

5403 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

5447 44- Revenue Seat Leg-Rest Coach

5008 8- Seat Lunch Counter 24- Seat Dining 16- Seat Lounge Car

AMERICAN HEIGHTS 6-Section 6-Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

WESTERN ADVENTURE 12-Roomette 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

The CHALLENGER ran as its own train only until 1956. At that time except for the peak summer season and Christmas travel period the CHALLENGER was combined with the CITY OF LAS ANGELES at the other times.

Both the CITY OF LOS ANGELES and CHALLENGER were discontinued with the coming of Amtrak in 1971.

[passengerfan]

Hope this helps.
CITY OF LOS ANGELES C&NW – UP Trains 103-104 May 14, 1947 Chicago – Los Angeles daily each direction 2,299 miles 39 hours 45 minutes

The May 14, 1947 date reflects the date the CITY OF LOS ANGELES became a daily streamliner. The Union Pacific had to discontinue the CHALLENGER in order to equip the CITY streamliners with lightweight coaches and dining cars something the railroad had been reluctant to do, as the CHALLENGER had been a very successful operation. It was felt that if all four CITY streamliners went daily not counting the CITY OF DENVER that was already daily than the UP would be way out in front of the competition offering fast daily streamliners between Chicago – St. Louis and the west coast. For daily operation of the CITY OF LOS ANGELES it was necessary for the C&NW to supply several prewar lightweight coaches from their 400 Pool. The UP converted former 48 seat Coaches with Nurses Quarters to Buffet 43 seat Lounge cars by installing a Buffet where the former nurses room was and removing the coach seating and installing lounge seating. As with the earlier CITY OF PORTLAND all cars were pre-war and the power came from a new postwar pool built for CITY streamliners. The CITY OF LOS ANGELES was assigned four sets of equipment and no two were alike initially one consisting of 11 cars, another 12, yet another 13, and the fourth had 14 cars. They must have driven the ticket agent’s nuts trying to sell space in this the age before computers. Power was usually A-B-A or A-B-B sets of EMD E units from the power pool.

CONSIST SEVENTH TRAIN

921A EMC E2A 1,800 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

922B EMC E2B 1,800 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

923B EMC E2B 1,800 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

5622 Baggage Car

LA-401 LAS VEGAS Articulated 52-Revenue Seat Coach
LA-402 SALT LAKE Articulated 52-Revenue Seat Coach

3423 (C&NW) 24-Revenue Seat Coach Bar 22-Seat Lounge Car

5101 Articulated 20-Crew Dormitory Kitchen Car
5101 Articulated 68-Seat Dining Room Car

LA-701 “THE LITTLE NUGGET” 5-Room Crew Dormitory Bar 35-Seat Club Lounge Car

ARROYO SECO Articulated 11-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
BEVERLY HILLS Articulated 12-Section Sleeping Car

SANTA MONICA Articulated 4-Compartment 3-Drawing Room Sleeping Car
SAN FERNANDO Articulated 13-Roomette Sleeping Car

CABRILLO 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

LA-901 SUN VALLEY Nurses Room Barber Shop Bar 36-Seat lounge Observation

CONSIST NINTH TRAIN

924A EMD E6A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

925B EMD E6B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

926B EMD E6B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

5603 Baggage Car

LA-405 PASADENA 48-Revenue Seat Coach

LA-406 BOULDER CITY 48-Revenue Seat Coach

3428 (C&NW) 24-Revenue Seat Coach Bar 22-Seat Lounge Car

5100 Articulated 20-Crew Dormitory Kitchen Car
5100 Articulated 68-Seat Dining Room Car

LA-703 HOLLYWOOD Barber Shop Nurses Room Bar 30-Seat Club Lounge Car

SAN DOMINGUEZ Articulated 11-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car
WILSHIRE Articulated 12-Section Sleeping Car

ROSE BOWL 18-Roomette Sleeping Car

LOS FELIZ 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

SAN GABRIEL 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

BALDY MOUNTAIN 4-Double Bedroom Buffet 31-seat Lounge Observation

CONSIST SIXTEENTH TRAIN

927A EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

928B EMD E7B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

929B EMD E7B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

5624 Baggage Car

5361 48-Revenue Seat Coach

3417 (C&NW) 56-Revenue Seat Coach

3429 (C&NW) 24-Revenue Seat Coach Bar 22-Seat Lounge Car

5102 Articulated 20-Crew Dormitory Kitchen Car
5102 Articulated 68-Seat Dining Room Car

FIGUEROA 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

ARCADIA 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

PALOS VERDES 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

LAKESIDE 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

AMERICAN COURIER 6-Roomette 6-Section 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1522 Barber Shop Bar 32-Seat Club Lounge Car (for end of train operation)

CONSIST SEVENTEENTH TRAIN

931A EMD E7A 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Cab Unit

962B EMD E7B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

960B EMD E7B 2,000 HP Diesel Passenger Booster Unit

5611 Baggage Car

5359 48-Revenue Seat Coach

3426 (C&NW) 56-Revenue Seat Coach

3430 (C&NW) 24-Revenue Seat Coach Bar 22-Seat Lounge Car

5103 Articulated 20-Crew Dormitory Kitchen Car
5103 Articulated 68-Seat Dining Room Car

OLVERA 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

PLAYA DEL REY 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

IMPERIAL HOUR 4-Compartment 2-Drawing Room 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

AMERICAN PLAINS 6-Roomette 6-Section 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

AMERICAN ROYAL 6-Roomette 6-Section 4-Double Bedroom Sleeping Car

1523 Barber Shop Bar 32-Seat Club Lounge Car (for end of train operation)

[timz]

And the 10 Jan 1954 introduction of the Challenger was likely the end of the LA Limited-- in any case the latter was around in 10/53 and not around after 10 Jan 54.

[timz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by passengerfan


The OVERLAND LIMITED as the SAN FRANCISCO OVERLAND did achieve streamliner status will have to look up the date I have it somewhere.

What's "streamliner status"? If it means the timetable called it a streamliner, I bet the SF Overland never got it.

The Challenger started in January 1954 on a separate schedule from the City of LA-- i.e. leaving Chicago in the morning. It ran on its own schedule for the next few summers, but at some point (9/56 or earlier) it was consolidated with the City of LA for the fall-winter-spring. The two trains were still shown in the timetable as the City of LA (with no coaches) and the Challenger, but there was only one schedule. In the summers, when the Challenger got its own schedule back, the City of LA got coaches again.

[daveklepper]

And none of the "City" trains operated as heavyweight trains. All were inaugurated as streamliners, some as the early articulated types (City of Salines, City of Denver, City of Portland) then switched to "loose cars", and some inaugurated as loose car trains, but with dedicated equipment: CofLA, CofSF.

[passengerfan]

According to Wayners Passenger Train Consists 1923 - 1973 the LOS ANGELES LIMITED consist of May 12, 1929 departing Las Vegas is as follows:

3176 4-6-2 Pacific Locomotive & Tender UP
2765 Baggage Dormitory Car UP
307 36-Seat Dining Car UP
CENTSPUR 8-Section 1-Drawing Room 2-Compartment Sleeper
DAHLONEGA 12-Section 1-Drawing Room Sleeping Car
GLEN CAMPSIE 6-Compartment 3-Drawing Room Sleeping Car
1554 Buffet Lounge Observation UP

[passengerfan]

As i remember reading the CITY OF LOS ANGELES did runs as all pullman fo a short period of time until combined with the postewar CHALLENGER. When the Super Bowl is over will dig out the information. Like the Santa Fe who operated the all Pullman SUPER CHIEF eventually they combined it with the EL CAPITAN.
The CITY OF LOS ANGELES only operated for about two years as all Pullman as i recall before being combined in the off peak periods with the CHALLENGER.
I don't believe the LOS ANGELES LIMITED ever achieved full streamliner status.Every picture I have ever seen of the dieselized LOS ANGELES LMITED shows some heavyweights in the consist painted in the Yellow to match the rest of the consist.
This was also quite common when the UP first streamlined the CITIES OF PORTLAND, LOS ANGELES and SAN FRANCISCO in 1947. If for any reason the trains ran late a heavyweight and lightweight mixed consist was substituted until the large AC&F postwar order of cars began arriving from the factory. The reason was their were only four consists of each train initially and if any streamlined cars were ailing heavyweights had to be substituted.

The OVERLAND LIMITED as the SAN FRANCISCO OVERLAND did achieve streamliner status will have to look up the date I have it somewhere.

[RRCharlie]

According to " Car Numbers Names and Consists " the Ninth Train, inaguarated August 3, 1941:

2000 HP unit, La-4; 2000 HP unit, LA-5; 2000 HP unit, LA-6; Baggage Dorm, LA 103; 48 seat chair, LA-405, Pasedena; 48 seat chair, LA-406, Boulder City; Cafe-Lounge, LA-612 Hacienda; 56 seat diner, LA-608, Ambassador; Buffet Lounge, LA=703, Hollywood; 2 11DBR-12 sec sleepers, San Dominguez and Wilshire; 18 rommette sleeper, Rose Bowl; 4 sleepers: 4 compartments, 2 drawing rooms, 4 double bed rooms,Los Feliz, San Gabriel, Olvera, Playa Del Rey; 4 double bed room observation, Baldy Mountain. All cars UP except Rose Bowl and Baldy Mountain carried C&NW markings.

2 extra sleepers: 4 comp, 2d.r., 4 d.b.r available as needed, Palos Verdes and Verdugo, both UP.

Train was never All Pullman.

Mel Hazen
Jacksonvile, FL

[timz]

Offhand, I'm guessing the City of LA was never all-Pullman.

When were the Overland and LA Ltd called Streamliners? Probably never.

LA Ltd discont 1954 or 1955, Overland disc as a thru Oakland-Chicago train 1955.

[Anonymous]

Can somebody give me the consist of the following UP trains???

1. Los Angeles Limited (full Heavyweight train, before being streamlined)
2. City of Los Angeles (before being equipped with domes and coaches and still having round end observations and All Pullman status)

When were the Los Angeles Limited and Overland Limited converted to Streamliner status? When have these two trains been discontinued?