STEEL PASSENGER CARS, WOOD PASSENGER CARS

[artpeterson]

In terms of upper sash usage, was always amazed that it hung around as long as it did! For example, those St. Louis-built cars for the AE&FRE in 1923, lightweight, double-truck cars, but still with arched, upper sash. Still, surprisingly tasteful in a modern car design.

[daveklepper]

Your list would explain the fishbellies, and it is interesting that the Santa Fe would modernize such cars with steam-ejector air-conditioning, big restrooms and reclininng seats. I just received in the mail a photo from my friend Karl Groh in Florida of the original sample New York Central mu car for the GCT electrification. It is all steel, of course no scribing, but (for a commuter car, yet!) semi-arched upper sash windows with leaded glass. Of course by the time I got around to riding those cars in the late 30's, the upper sash had been plated over.

[artpeterson]

Hi Dave -

It's interesting, but some cars (especially private-owner cars) used upper-sash windows into the mid-to-late 20s, while most mainline RR cars/Pullman company service cars had gone to the single-sash arrangement by the late teens. As for the assignment data I provided, recall that this is the initial assignment of the car(s) - don't have any idea how long this may have lasted. There were also upper sash window steel cars that were not scribed - had riveted sheets above and below the belt rail.

Regarding the specific matter of composite (wood-steel) cars built for the Santa Fe, here's what the Pullman lot list offers: a total of 65 cars built in eight lots during 1911 and 1912 are noted as having steel underframes. Included were 8 diners, 3 buffet cars, 4 buffet-baggage cars, 15 smokers, 10 chair cars, 14 coaches , 10 mail-smokers and one baggage-coach. The first all-steel cars Pullman built for the Santa Fe are listed as 10 baggage cars dating to 1911 in Lot 3925. Thereafter, 35 all-steel coaches in lot 4121 of 1913.

Of course, this is just what Pullman built for the road. I've asked one of the AT&SF Society members about company-built cars and what the other builders might have supplied in the way of composite cars. If I hear anything, I'll let you know.

Composite cars were still being built into the early 20s. There are Pullman builders photos of horse cars for Arms that are wood bodied-steel underframe jobs. Some of these were built new, while other lots were reconstructions of older cars.

[daveklepper]

If they still used the upper-sash window arrangement, this is would be a clear argument that they were intended to be used in trains where wood and steel equpment was mixed and uniformity of appearance was required. But I am surprised that the New Haven had such Pullman equipment, because in 1907 they were ordering steel open platform MU cars for their initial electrification, of course without scribing. Possibly for some through service on a name train with the B&M or the NYC?

[artpeterson]

Following up to the matter of Pullman steel cars and steel cars scribed to look like wood cars, here's some additional information. The first steel Pullman is the 1907 "Jamestown"; the next steel car after that (in Pullman service, that is) is the "Carnegie" built in 1909 for use on the PRR. As Dave mentioned, PRR was interested in the IRT steel cars, and concerned about what would happen to wood-bodied cars in a tunnel collison or fire. According to the Pullman lot lists, the last wood-bodied cars built for its own general service were 10 sleepers in Lot 3808, dating to 1910.

Regarding wood bodied cars with deep fishbelly center sills, I found builders photos of the baggage-smoker "Admiral" (Lot 3660, photographed on 2-10-09) and the Observation-sleeper "Adrastus" (Lot 3688, photographed on 4-17-09) with this type of construction.

In going through later builders' photos there are several orders of Pullman service cars that were built of steel but scribed to look like wood cars. Examples of this type of construction were found in ten photos taken between 10/19/12 and 4/21/16. In close-up views of the Pullman service cars, the scribing was applied to the window posts and the side sheets below the belt rail. There was also an interesting undated shot of a scribed steel car which had been side-swiped. Of course, since it's steel its got the scrapes along the sides, but no torn-up or missing boards as you'd see on a true wood car after such an accident.

The scribed steel car that appeared in "Steam Steel & Limiteds" and in "Some Classic Trains" is "Lake Forest", shot on the rear end of the "Overland" on 7/3/21. BTW, according to the Pullman lot lists, initial assignments of scribed steel cars included ATSF, CNW, CRI&P, DL&W, Erie, NH, NYC and Pullman general service pools.

There were also wood-boided cars (with queen posts, truss rods, etc.) that received steel sheathing and the typical single-sash window design you'd associate with the all-steel Pullman cars. All the photos I found of scribed steel cars still used the upper sash window arrangement, BTW.

[daveklepper]

An obs in UP or UP-SP-C&NW service could have been configured custom to suite UP's requirements. I could see an obs being built with such scribing to match a series of wood sleepers and (possibly) coaches to form a matched train. If my travels during WWII on sleepers I never saw a standard 12&1 with wood scribing, and this included cars that still had ice air-conditioning, which sometimes meant no air-conditioning when the ice didn't show up!.

The BRT car was built new and didn't last very long in service because it was too heavy for some of the el structures and had to be restricted to where it could operate, reducing flexibility. But it did survive for some purposes until some years after WWII.

[artpeterson]

Hi Dave -

Regarding your comment about Met West Side 717 (later CER, CRT and CTA 2717), this car did manage to run for almost 50 years after being rebuilt as a steel car. Upon retirement from passenger service in the early 50s, it was selected for conversion to a snow-blower car, and had one of the collision posts and part of the end sheeting removed to install the blower. The tests with it in this service did not pan out, and it was scrapped thereafter.

I recall that there was a shot in "Steam, Steel & Limiteds" of a Pullman-owned obs in UP service with the wood scribing on the steel body.

[daveklepper]

The earliest all-steel cars were built by the PRR in the Juniata shops according to George Gibbs designs, first for both the Interborough Rapid Transit in NY and for the LIRR, then for the PRR. The steel of the belt rail and below was part of the structure. The second group were the Stillwells built for the Hudson and Manhattan, I think the first group by Bethleham Steel. I saw these old 1904 and 1905 cars in actual operation, and I don't remember any scribing to imitate wood. Possibly some other railroads may have done this, however. The third group would the earliest steel Pullman cars, built by Pullman, and I know there were no Pullmans with steel sides scribed to look like wood. Pullmans basically used the Gibbs design principles. Wagner, perhaps? For the New York Central? There were also one-off experimental and very heavy steel elevated cars built for the Brooklyn Rapid Transit and the Chicago Rapid Transit, basically built like a wood car but using steel, and neither remained in passenger service very long, although both lasted a long time in non-passsenger use. Neither had scribed sides. Both systems later ordered more modern steel designs, the BMT steel of 1914 possibly being really the very best subway car ever built in many people's opinion, a Stillwell design in total. Commonly called "B-Types" although in actuality there were A's, B's, Bx's, and BT's. Used until 1965, with a "nostalgia set" kept for railfan charters and other specials and running today. Oh, Stillwell loved arched windows.

When center doors were cut into the original IRT "Gibbs cars", side fishbellies were added and were used on a number of cars built with center doors. The Stillwells used the entire steel side as a truss with the center door and some later IRT cars were built with center doors and without fishbellies, inlcuding the deck roofers, one of which is preserved at Branford.

Some 50 years ago when I first ventured into the West (anything west of Iowa) I was surprised to encounter modernized (air conditioning, reclining seats, giant restrooms) heavyweight Santa Fe coaches with fishbellies.

[wjstix]

BTW the earliest steel sided passenger cars were scribed to look like wood cars. [:O][%-)]

[wjstix]

Dave: Yes, the first step was steel underframes (often fishbelly) with the rest being wood. Not sure if the next step would be an all-steel floor/underframe, but pretty soon the ends and roof were steel too with wood sides, then all steel.

Like I said, a lot of it had to do with Post Office requirements, they required steel underframes and then steel underframe/end/roof as a safety measure for RPO employees.

[artpeterson]

Regarding the earlier comment about wood bodied cars with steel sheathing, most of these would have retained the queen posts turn buckle and truss rods. THI&E had a few 1903 Cincinnatis and the like which were later steel sheathed but retained the equipment necessary to tighten up a wood bodied/super-structured car.

Even the "L" cars in Chicago that had steel members inserted into their underframes in the wake of the Granville wreck retained the truss rods, etc.

[daveklepper]

wjstix: By steel underframed cars you mean basically wood with steel underframes?

[wjstix]

Most all steel underframed cars (freight and passenger) had fishbellies. Apparently it took a while to work out that they were overbuilt - they didn't need that much steel to brace the underframes.

[daveklepper]

That seems like a sensible answer, that they were rebuilt wood cars with steel covering the wood.

The New Haven used wood baggage cars into the 50's until it got some second hand steel ones to replace the wood cars joining some steels already on the property. The New York Ontario and Western never owned a steel passenger car! It did borrow New York Central (West Shore) steels for summer service. During WWII, the Boston and Maine had a huge fleet of open platform wood coaches mostly for suburban (Boston) and branch line service and still had a few vestibuled wood cars in mainline service. Open platform wood cars continued being used right up into the RDC area of the late 50's. In addition to the Chicago Aurora and Elgin, other interurbans used wood cars in the postwar era, and I rode them on the Canadian National;s Quebec - St. Joaquim line, the Waterloo Ceder Falls and Northern, the Lehigh Valley Tranasit (only one wood interurban car still in passenger service, but many converted for trolley frieght service), and two cars, one in use and one standby on the Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley (Larual Line) for the Dunmore branch only. Other interurbans had converted to all steel operation, often with second hand cars predominating, as on Crandic. I did not ride Texas Electric, Illinois Terminal, or Pacific Electric, but I understand all three did use some wood cars in the Post WWII era.

[Philcal]

Dave, I'm searching my memory banks, and I seem to recall seeing some of the fishbellies on Santa Fe's LA-San Bernardino trains in the early 50's. I believe these were one time wooden cars covered with sheet steel to give the appearence of steel cars. I can't prove that though.

[daveklepper]

Still waiting for an answer as to why the fishbellies on some heavywieght Santa Fe coaches!

[wjstix]

For mainline US passenger cars, a lot of it had to do with the US Mail. Early in the 20th century they required that railroad's RPO cars had to have steel roof / end / frame construction for safety purposes, and eventually required the entire car to be steel. I think it was many years later that wood cars were actually banned, but it was hard for the railroads to promote their wood passenger cars as being safe, when the USPS outlawed wood RPO's because they weren't safe !!

[daveklepper]

Gibbs designed the first really practical steel cars for the IRT in NYC, the LIRR, and then the PRR. The idea was that the side below the window would act as a girder, rather building a car as a structural flatcar with a body applied to it. This is why when center doors were cut into the original IRT cars, fishbellies had to added to restore streingth. But Sillwell designed the orignal Hudson and Manhattan cars with the sides serving as girders, all the way to the roof line, and even the roof adding to the buffing streingth of the cars. This principle was then used on all BMT steel cars right through to the multi's, on the Erie and C&EI and NYW&B and L&PS stillwells resulting in lighter cars that were really an advanced and excellent design.

My question remains: Why the fishbellies on AT&SF heavyweight coaches?

[artpeterson]

Early attempts to build steel "L" cars for the Met West Side Elevated in Chicago (a rebuild of a wood car damaged by fire ca. 1904) resulted in a VERY heavy car (built as if it were a wood car, but using steel). There's no "official" weight for this car, but it was always speculated that it came in around 50 tons, where the 1922 steel cars (built and desiged as such) were 20 tons lighter).

[agentatascadero]

While I cannot find documentation, I believe all steel construction of Mainline passenger equipment was required since the very early 1900's, probably as started by New York City. Perhaps commuter equipment was not so affected. I can recall though, being in Quebec in about 1949 or so, and saw quite a few wood cars there, and was told this was illegal in the US, because of fire and safety issues. We rode across Canada on that trip, and the long distance cars were all steel.

[daveklepper]

Thanks for the Chicago area information, and I did ride in wood C&AE and CRT cars. Last wood or rather composite cars in NYC were the Q's which closed out the Myrtle Avenue Elevated in 1957 (?). They were rebuilt from open platform gate wood cars, with steel ends and sliding doors for Queens (Flushhing and Astoria) BMY service in 1938, took over the Third Avenue El Through Express service from composite cars in 1952 after Astoria went all BMT with steel cars and Flushing all IRT, then went to the Myrtle Avenue elevated, replacing the last gate car trains, after the Manhattan portion of the 3rd Avenuc el wasabandoned.

Still waiting for an answer on those AT&SF cars!

[artpeterson]

Those CA&E woods and the "L" woods that made it to late 1957 were steel-underframed cars. In the wake of the 1937 accident at Granville (between a CNS&M train of steel cars and CRT train which had a wood trailer on the end) the IL Commerce Commission ordered the CRT to add steel members to the underframes of the wood cars. That project led to the re-opening of the CRT Skokie Shops (closed for the depression).

CNS&M wood car usage on the mainline had ended by the close of WWII. South Shore's conversion to DC power distribution ended most wood car usage in the mid-to-late 20s. One wood car (222, I think...) was rebuilt as a trailer, intended as a prototype for a planned rebuild program, but it was cancelled after that one car was done. Two other woods survived in company/work service until the 1940s.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

PRR and LIRR were early converts to all-steel construction because of the approaches to Penn Station. The Hudson River and East River tunnels are long and wood-body cars were deemed to be too hazardous and were restricted from operation in the tunnels and thus into Penn Station.

In the Chicago area, Chicago Aurora & Elgin operated wood cars up to July 1957, when it suspended all passenger service. The Chicago Transit Authority ran wood cars on the Kenwood shuttle for a few more months until that line was abandoned.

[daveklepper]

As note in February TRAINS, the Long Island Rail Road was the first large railroad to completely replace wood with steel passenger equipment. I believe the parent PRR was all steel shortly after, possibly in the early 30's, but only if one does not count the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore lines, which operated some classic wood interurban cars in trolley wire suburban service out of Camden (along with some steel DC MP-54's) as well as the Atlantic City Ocean City interuban car service. The New York Central operated wood vestibuled cars in West Shore local service out of Weehawken through WWII. On the same tracks, the New York Ontario and Western never owned a steel car (the great timber fleet.) Much of the Boston and Maine suburban service continued with wood open-platform coaches into the mid-50's, with RDC's replacing the last.

The last wood New Haven passenger cars, in Boston suburban cars, were replaced by the displaced New York Westchester and Boston cars after that line was abandoned, with the center doors sealed and the space used for additional seats. But wood baggage cars continued running into Grand Central until about 1953, but not into Penn Station.

Even in the postwar era, the Santa Fe operated some modernized long distance coaches with reclining seats and air conditioning that had fishbelly side sills. Anyone know if these were rebuilt wood cars with steel plating?