What if UP and SP had been allowed to split the Rock Island back in the 60's

[Anonymous]

Heres a theory.
SP gets to Kansas City and forges an alliance with one of the several roads running between there and Chicago.
UP gets into Chicago on a route that has shorter interchange routes within the Windy City to all Eastern connections.
It would make the C&NW less important to UP, but possibly very important to SP.
I really don't think it would have unseated Santa Fe's dominance between Chicago and KC, but we might be looking at a different railroad map today.
All this is just for fun what if's.
Anyone else got any.

Jimmy

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

C&NW didn't get to Kansas City until it absorbed CGW, which did not have a well-engineered line into KC anyway, so this would have been a non-factor for SP. CB&Q or N&W would have been a better connection for SP in Kansas City.

RI may have had shorter interchange routes in the Chicago Switching District, but Burr Oak was a relatively small flat yard that probably couldn't have handled the additional traffic that UP would have put through it. RI's interchange with IHB was awkward and would have required a back-up move to get to IHB Blue Island yard. The interchange with BRC was EAST of Clearing and classification of any cars delivered to BRC would have required two trips over Clearing's hump. C&NW may have had longer interchange routes through Chicago but they were better situated for the run-through routes that eventually developed.

[Anonymous]

Good points CSS!
With Rocks transfers coming from the East, they were geographicly an Eastern road in BRC's operations, and interchange was not really convenient to IHB, BRC, or B&OCT, which would have required the same back up move.
Proviso would be able to handle it better.
I was also gonna speculate on what would have happened if C&O/B&O had been able to Merge with NYC, and N&W with the PRR, but we'd have basicly have todays CSX and NS minus the PC collapse, and several billion spent later to do essentially the same.
Any more scenarios?

Jimmy

[Wdlgln005]

A Rock Island/UP combo may help shippers in Des Moines & the Quad cities get better service. Also, the UP streamliners might get better east ent patronage, ending at LaSalle st & connections to NYC trains. I see the Rock as a third-rate player behind both ATSF & CB&Q. A strong partner in UP may have changed their fate.
The way it worked out, it would have been too late. LA was outgrowing the Bay area, so ATSF won that war. All this would depend if the combined UP/Rock enterprise had the ca***o keep the mains in good repair.

[route_rock]

Ok SP could have bought all the way to Davenport if they wanted ran off MO junction given its loads to the Milwaukee/SOO/whoever. UP should have been allowed to get the rock in the 60's track wasnt as bad and it would have made sense. However I dont condone mergers. I think the Rock could have survived, with the implements it was trying at the time and changed the rail industry. SP bought Tuc to KC I do believe before the big shutdown. Most of the Rocks lines are still running today ( I wi***hey would have left OMaha to Lincoln so Kyle and IAIS could interchange but wah wah no competition please ! ) Look at the Bow and Arrow country. Amazing isnt it that C&NW cried about redundent railroad yet didnt abandon that whole area.Funny really.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Regarding the Bow and Arrow lines, keep in mind that C&NW had previously abandoned a lot of former M&StL and CGW lines prior to picking up the ex-RI lines so much of the redundancy had already been addressed.

Although much of the former Rock Island is indeed still in existence, once you get past the Kansas City-Tucumcari line, most of the surviving main lines survive as secondary lines or very long branch lines.

[route_rock]

C&NW Had divested a lot of its lines yes but still cried like the whiny little railroad it was about redundancy. I think they were just tourqed off that in 71 most people wanted them liquidated. Redundancy is one thing but operating your line is another. SHort haul traffic can be key the Rock tried it but fell flat due to regulators, unions and others crying and screaming. It could have worked and it should have worked but this is what happens i guess.
Plus IAIS may be a secondary but IC&E from Nahant to Washington and then points in Missouri are all Rock Island. It still sees a lot of action plus like I posted before, if certain connections hadnt been severed then it wouldnt be secondary lines etc etc. Spine line is still the best way to get from Minn St Paul to points south.
Just food for thought maybe if railroads had had half a clue and not all been told do it this way or else or better yet end to end instead of side by side mergers things would be different today. But I doubt it anytime you get government involved you get people that can mess up a one car funeral.

[gabe]

So the CN&W went to Kansas City; did it still have this line after UP bought it out?

Gabe

[Anonymous]

Gabe, C&NW first got to KC when it bought CGW. The CGW line was abandoned after C&NW was awarded the former Rock Spine Line from the Twin Cities through Des Moines to KC.

[califnative]

If UP and SP had been able to split the Rock Island the one route that would have made the SP to compete with both the UP and the SF would certainly have been the Choctaw Route from Tucumcari, NM to Memphis, TN.

This line while not a traditionally prosperous line it would most certainly have proven to be a great bridge line between NS and SP, since the line is just about as straight and fast as the traditional Overland Route after leaving the Sierra Nevada Range.

I would have loved to see have been able to see today's container trains racing between Memphis and Los Angeles along the former Route 66. Now all we have are dreams! Sad!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I was justifiably taken to task by no less than Mark Hemphill for making similar suggestions regarding Frisco's connection with the Santa Fe at Avard. The Choctaw Route looks good on a map but the reality was quite different.

Memphis-Tucumcari and Omaha/Kansas City-Denver are about the only routes on the former Rock Island that were abandoned as through routes although isolated parts still exist as short lines.

[Texas Zepher]

Having thought about this since it was first posted. I think there would have been a further consolidation of some of the other lines. To compete with the Big Three Transcons AT&SF, SP, UP. The BN merger would have happened sooner, and that would have forced a the WP - D&RGW - MP (Rio Grande Pacific). Five single road transcons. UP and SP would still have and advantage serving the North and South western seaboard. The BN being hurt with no SW or SE connections could still pick up the FRISCO to help a little. The Santa Fe would still crippled with no Seatle/Canada connections. The final Rio Grand Pacific would suffer from having no Seatle/Canada connection and no SW or SE connections. Milwalkee would be come a target for either. But the BNSF merger might have been blocked just for this very reason so that would still leave the UP and SP with some serious advantages.