Santa Fe Alco PA assignments - East end of system 50's and 60's

[Anonymous]

Once again, I'm reaching out to all of you experts on Santa Fe passenger operations in the 50's and 60's - this time, regarding the trains that Alco PA's were typically assigned to. I have the Santa Fe in color series (highly recommend for any Santa Fe fans) - one of these volumes mentions that the PA's were often used on the San Francisco Chief west of Kansas City, as well as the southern district mail trains 3&4 via Amarillo, TX. From the mid-1950's to about 1965-1966, the only pictures I've seen of Santa Fe's PA's east of Kansas City has been on the Grand Canyon, nos. 23-24.

My questions for all of you experts out there:

1. Were the PA's used east of Kansas City for the Fast Mail and Express, #7-8? (It seems that after about 1954-1955, the Chief, Super Chief, El Capitan, Texas Chief and San Francisco Chief all used EMD F's east of KC, and of those trains, only the San Francisco Chief used PA's west of KC);

2. For the Grand Canyon, either east or west of KC, were EMD F-units or PA's more common, or was it really just a matter of what power was available on any given day?

3. [Same question as #2 - but for the Fast Mail and Express, #7-8].

4. Last question - [PA issue aside for a moment] - once the FP-45's were delivered in late '67, how common was it for F-units to handle the Super Chief/El Cap? It seems most pictures of that train after late '67 have FP-45's rather than F-units (although the FP-45's were purchased specifically for the Super Chief and El Capitan, some pictures of F-units can still be seen after '67, so I guess it's just a question of how ofter the F's continued to handle that assignment - with only 9 FP-45's, it would seem F-units were required in the summer or winter whenever multiple sections were run, but I'm not sure about "off-peak" times of the year - I know the Super C piggyback train often drew FP-45's, which must have increased the liklihood of F-units reappearing on Santa Fe's flagship.

Thanks.

[passengerfan]

The Tulsan was also an assignment for the PA's west of Kansas City.
Chicagoan and Kansas Cityans drew PA's for power on many occasions in the time period you mention.
#7 and #8 were a regular assignment for the PA's they were great at the stop and go required and almost always making up time.
Kansas City Chief also drew PA's quite often during this period.
For the life of me I can't find the information I have on the Grand Canyon trains east of KC. I am quite sure they probably drew PAs but can't find the information I need to confirm.
Since between the Super Chief and El Capitan when they ran separately in peak travel periods at least twelve sets of diesel were necessary I am positive the EMD F7 units were often power Although the Santa Fe sometimes ran F-45 diesels with an FP-45 on the combined Super Chief/El Capitan.

[Anonymous]

Very helpful feedback - Good point about the trains you are mentioning - the westbound KC Chief I know departed Dearborn at 10pm, and I believe the Fast Mail left Dearborn at about midnight - which would explain the lack of pictures of those trains. (By the way, any books or other publications you're aware of that detail Santa Fe passenger train operations in great detail - I'm aware of the publication "A Quarter Century of Santa Fe Consists" by Fred Frailey (1974?) - but I have yet to locate a copy...)

Seems I''ve also seen lots of pictures of the E-6's and E-8m's on the Kansas Cityan and the Chicagoan. Seems the f-units were rare on those two trains.

I'm assuming the eastbound Fast Mail #8 probably arrived in Chicago well after dark - again explaining the lack of pictures.

On the San Francisco Chief - I've seen lots of pictures of the PA's between KC and Gallup, NM, and somewhat less in AZ and CA. I don't believe I've ever seen pictures of PA's on the San Francisco Chief east of KC - any idea why? Was KC a routine "turn around" point for PA's, whether they were assigned east or west of KC on any given day?

[passengerfan]

Remember the Chief was dieselized following WW II initially with FT diesels and then A-B-A sets of PAs. The Super Chief was operated behind EMD F3 A-B-B-A sets when it became daily as was the El Capitan. Later both received EMD F7 A-B-B-A as assigned power between Chicago and Los Angeles. The EMD F3 diesels were all upgraded to F7 standards and became interchangable on these trains. The PAs replaced the prewar EMD E units on the Valley Flyers and often one San Diegan round trip was operated with PAs laying over from the Chief. The Tulsan from about 1950 on became a regular assignment for the PAs and Grand Canyons west of KC ran with F3 or PAs. The Texas Chiefs were regularly assigned EMD F3 later F7 sets but later became PA assignments as well.

[Anonymous]

By the 1960's the remnant of the Angelo FTW-Brownwood had a PA (I don't have the number handy right now) assigned on a near-permanent basis. It laid over during the day in FTW at the little engine terminal just SW of and across the yard from the SF station (just N of Tower 55 and the IH30 underpass). This train had ceased to be the Angelo by that time and was just the DAL/FTW connection for the CA Special, taking the through DAL cars to/from 111/112 at FTW, plus an RPO that originated at FTW and hauling them to/from Brownwood to connect with the Houston section, which also got PA's. If I remember right this service had either the longest or one of the longest assortments of train no's in the US--a veritable numeric alphabet soup. This was s middle-of the night service, both ways.

Rode it in the through DAL-LAX Pullman (10-3-2 "Blue" car) in 1967, behind PAs all the way except DAL-FTW (E8m) and train 23 Barstow-LAX, which was F's. Basically the same coming back. Connected westbound with a southbound San Diegan at Fullerton (we were late-this was advertised as an LAUPT connection) pulled by a PA.

So there's another one to add to your collection.

[Anonymous]

Judging by everyone's feedback and the pictures of ATSF PA's I've seen - it seem safe to say that PA's were concentrated on assignments west of KC - with only sporadic use east of KC after all of the F-7's were delivered, and again, only on the Grand Canyon, Fast Mail Express, Kansas City Chief, Kansas Cityan/Chicagoan. It seems that the Grand Canyon and Fast Mail Express were just as likely or perhaps more likely in the '60's to have F-units, and the Kansas City Chief and Kansas Cityan/Chicagoan seemed to have the E-6's and E-8m's quite a bit.

From about 1946-1949, I've seen a few photos of PA's on the Chief and El Capitan, but certainly none for those particular trains after '49. I've never seen a picture of a PA on the Super Chief - assuming Gurley made it known to everyone that this was never to happen unless there were literally no EMD F-units available at a particular time (and with the huge number of F-units Santa Fe had, I'm sure this could not have occurred more than a handful of times (if ever at all) between 1946 and when the PA's were retired in '68. I'm certainly not trying to tra***he PA - I think they'd look pretty cool pulling the combined Super/El Capitan with Hi-levels, Pleasure Dome and all - but if anyone has ever heard of the PA's pinch-hitting on #17-18, I'd definitely be interested to hear about it!! [To be quite honest though, I'm still an EMD fan first and foremost)....