Electromotive Corporation

[pennytrains]

While I was reading the summer issue of CT, having read the SIP EMD at 100, and numerous other articles over the years, an unanswered question still pops into my mind.

All sources, writers, etc., simply say something to the effect of "the Electromotive Corporation began in an office in Cleveland, Ohio".

But never have I found a resource that tells me definitively exactly WHERE that office was.  I know Winton was at Berea Road and Madison Avenue.  Preston Cook's article (in summer 2022 CT) titled Early Electro-Motive, he says Hal Hamilton "selected the neighboring Winton Engine Co...as the best available option."

But does that mean that EMC's offices were literally on Madison Avenue or Berea Road?  Or is that just a generalization of the word "neighboring"?

So.  Does anybody have an old advertisement, company document or what have you that has the Electro-Motive Corporation's mailing address for 1922?

[pennytrains]

PS:  Why?  I'd like to go there and see if the building(s) where Electro-Motive got it's start still exists.  And of course I'll take a camera!

[SSW9389]

Here's one of those articles that states that EMC began in rented office space near downtown Cleveland. Thanks to Don Stack's Utah Rails for hosting the article. And if someone really wants to sleuth this try a library that has old phone books of Cleveland, that might be a winning ticket. Keilty_EMC.pdf (utahrails.net) 

Ed in Kentucky

[daveklepper]

Excellent read.   Thanks!

[wjstix]

I was able to find an old ad with an address in Cleveland for GM's Cleveland Diesel Engine Division:

https://vintagedieseldesign.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/img2019.jpg

Besides the old phonebooks from Cleveland, if you could find old corporate documents - letters to/from EMC, incorporation documents filed with the state of Ohio (probably with secretary of state's office), patent applications, blueprints/diagrams, or old advertising might show the address.

[rcdrye]

From the 1923 Cleveland City Directory:

ELECTROMOTIVE ENGINEERING CO THE (Inc

   1922; cap $250,000), H L HAMILTON Pres, P R

   Turner V-Pres-Sec, R L Talbot Treas, Designers

    and Manufacturers of Gas-Electric Railway Equip-

    ment 2020 B F Keith Bldg, Tel Main 2535

 

The 21 story B F Keith building is still standing at 1621 Euclid Ave near Playhouse Square in downtown Cleveland.  Completed in 1922, it was the tallest building in Cleveland when built.  Terminal Tower was completed in 1927.

[SSW9389]

The short history: Keith Building - Wikipedia 

Ed in Kentucky

[pennytrains]

Talk about your strange coincidences!  Take a look at this photo I took while I was planning my layout a couple of months ago:

https://link.shutterfly.com/g11TGhiAkqb

I made these backdrop buildings by enlarging and

Photoshoping a few key Cleveland landmarks that

I was able to find good images on the net for. From

left to right they're the Terminal Tower, the Illuminating

Company building, the Ohio Bell building (the inspiration

for the Daily Planet), the Society for Savings

Building, THE KEITH BUILDING and the May Co.

Department Store. I only chose the Keith Building

because I couldn't find a good enough photo of

the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers Building

or it's clone; the Standard Building which is still

standing and now houses luxury apartments!

Small World@

[pennytrains]

https://www.loopnet.com/property/2160-w-106th-st-cleveland-oh-44102/39035-00506005/

OK, I think I found it!  Maybe I'm wrong but it looks to me like it once said "Winton Motor Co." above the door!

So if this is Winton, does that mean it was the "Plant 3" where switchers were built after WW2?  The maps show rails leading up to the back walls of the building at the far end.

[rcdrye]

1947 Cleveland City Directory lists General Motors Corp Clev Diesel Engine Div at 2130 W. 110th.  There's no listing for Electro-Motive.  The building at 2130 W. 110th is part of a larger group that share a common fence line and did have rail access on its northern edge.

The other building (2160 W. 105th) is a couple of blocks away and was apparently used as a shipping point for industrial and marine versions of GM diesels.

[Flintlock76]

pennytrains

OK, I think I found it!  Maybe I'm wrong but it looks to me like it once said "Winton Motor Co." above the door!

It could say "Winton Motor Company."  I was able to enlarge the photo but the "ghost lettering" that remains is pretty indistinct, in addition to which the chop-out of the facade to facilitate that garage door installation with the loss of lettering makes it tough to be 100% sure. 

[rcdrye]

The buildings on west 105th and 110th were Winton Engine plants 1 and 2, respectively.  Plant 3 was built by the Cleveland Diesel Engine Division (CDED)  but was originally owned by the US Navy, which paid for its construction.  The plant was located at 8684 West Clinton Road near the New York Central main line. CDED operated the plant building 567 and other engines for subs and small vessels during WWII. EMD later used it for final assembly of switchers and GP7s. CDED's plants 1 and 2 were where non-locomotive power plants were set up by CDED.  After EMD stopped building locomotives there various other GM divisions used the plant.  The roof still has a Terex GM logo.

[pennytrains]

So where were the original Zephyr's engines built?  At the old Winton plants 1 and 2 or at the Navy's plant 3?

[pennytrains]

By the way, wanna buy a building suitable for building B-29's or Sherman tanks?

https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/6200-Riverside-Dr-Cleveland-OH/24011692/

 

[Flintlock76]

Wow, that International Expo Center looks like just the place for the mother of all train shows!  

 

[M636C]

pennytrains

So where were the original Zephyr's engines built?  At the old Winton plants 1 and 2 or at the Navy's plant 3?

 

Looking at the Kettering paper on the development of the 567, there is no clear indication of which plant was used. However, reading between the lines, it sounds as though  the eight cylinder 201As would have been built in Plant No 1, since they were making frequent design changes, and would need their most experienced men.

The USN was mainly interested in larger engines, V-16s for submarines, although only one 201A was ever installed in a submarine and later engines with Winton designations were used during WWII.

Peter 

[rcdrye]

The 567 was developed at Lagrange, and even Cleveland built locomotives got engines from Lagrange.  Winton-design engines were built in Cleveland, and 567s were re-labelled as CDED for non-locomotive applications.  Plant 3 produced lots of Winton-designed marine engines in WWII.

[pennytrains]

Flintlock76

Wow, that International Expo Center looks like just the place for the mother of all train shows!  

 

 

I went to the Greenberg show there once.  Part of the problem was parking cost more than admission.  It was also where the Cleveland Auto Show was held and every year in the late winter months it hosted the "IX Indoor Amusement Park".

During WW2 they built the plant for manufacturing B-29's.  Starting with the Korean conflict, they made tanks on into the Vietnam War years, which earned the place the moniker of "The Cleveland Tank Plant".

Popular myth says aircraft carriers went up the Cuyahoga River to the tank plant for loading.  Of course the Cuyahoga river is miles away and a carrier could never make the oxbow turn the way lake ore boats can.   But somehow they think a massive ship could navigate the nearby Rocky River which is about 10 feet deep at best and flows through a forest!