passenger service uniforms

[Anonymous]

Wow - you guys sure know a lot of uniforms.

Can someone help me identify when these uniforms were from and maybe who they were for?

Thanks!

http://www.roonierella.com/ebay/baldwin1.jpg

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

A female trainman has been working my outbound ride home (Metra Southwest) and her cap is a Navy WAVE style. Perhaps Mitch can comment if this is standard for female crews.

[Anonymous]

Anybody aware of manufacturers still in existence that make custom cap badges? Contact info?

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by earlydiesels

Thank you for all the info, Mitch. I bought a BN conductor's uniform that has a made for Metra label by Caleb V. Smith on the inside. It is dark blue and I only have the coat and trousers. The trousers were way too large, and even after tailoring, are too baggy. I am searching for trousers more my size, along with a vest and a proper hat. I borrowed an original CBQ hat for a special occasion last year but eventually hope to complete my uniform. I like to "conduct" infrequently as I prefer the right hand seat up front. Thanks again and I might contact you if any other questions arise.

FYI...concernng Metra uniforms.

The color of the fabric is "US Customs Blue," worn by customs agents. It's not too far off of Burlington's blue uniforms. The Metra vest was changed after I first laid out the specs. It now is 5 button style with the bottom cut straight across to acomodate coin changers worn on the belt. I don't advise using this style with a classic uniform. Metra uniform cloth is treated with "Scotchgaurd" which causes the cloth to look hard and shiny.

Here's how the Metra uniform came about. In 1978 as the RTA was assuming more responsibilities in overseeing suburban operations, there came the need to provide uniforms for the crew of the Orland Park train on the NS. At one time when I visited Carlson Uniforms when they were still in the Loop, I noticed what I thought was a trainman's uniform hanging on the rack, complete with vest. It was a very pleasing shade of blue. I asked whoose uniform that was and I was told it was an Ozark Airlines captain's uniform. It was further explained that Ozark wanted to "harken back to the days of rail travel." I fliped because Amtrak wanted to look like flight captains. That's the '70s for ya. I asked what shade of blue that was and was told "US Customs Blue." I suggested that be used for the new uniforms as it doesn't look black in flourescent lighting.
When it came time to formalize and unify all the uniforms in 1983 this is what I specified. This was a little before the name Metra came about. I used a three piece uniform in the customs blue. The pocket stitching on the coat was double stitched as influenced by the uniforms from New York. I also had them leather trimmed. We used a black neck tie as the maroon ones on the Burlington would develope a dirt spot on the knot from constant use. This would happen with black ties as well but it wasn't as noticable, ad black ties were easier to obtain. The style of the cap was influenced by Penn Central uniform caps that really were late model PRR ones. The had a mesh construction and were comfortable to wear. Several of us wore them on the Milwaukee as a test. The objection that many trainmen had to the older silk caps that had a hard bamboo or plastic construction was they were heavy and uncomfortable. Caps for employees on RTA operated lines would have no trim as it was expected a badge with insignia would be developed, and I felt that badge with stripes would be too garish for the times. Collars would simply have the initials "NIRPC." That stood for Northern Illinois Rail Passenger Corporation. On member railroads the initials would reflect the company, i.e. C&NW, or IC, which acctualy were worn until the name Metra was adopted. The caps would get 2 rows of yellow "suitash" a thin, discrete trim that was used by the NYC. Two rows of stripes was a common trim in Chicagoland. The CNW. CSS, NSL, CGW, Soo Line,CA&E, and the Milwaukee before 1938 all used that. There would be just the plain Blackington badge to say conductor or trainman. This is why you see some Metra caps with or without trim.

When I hired out in train service on the CNW, in 1969 I was elated at the thought of wearing of the most traditional railroad uniforms remaining. They were dark navy, known as "midnight blue," and still had initials and cap title embroidered in bullion. That's the type of embeoidery that looks like tiny metal springs. A big surprise awaited me the week I started brakeman's class. No. 1, I couldn't work passenger for 6 months. No.2, the CNW had just agreed to change the style of their uniforms to that rediculous green elevator operator's suit. Returning the blue uniform to the the CNW lines was my way of getting back.

The CNW's green uniform started as an off-hand remark by a trainman. The "Club Run," as it was known carried 4 private cars on the 7.15 am train out of Kenosha, and returned on the 5.10pm train. The crew was 3 senior men. Vern Gerth, and the Skrugs brothers, Huey, and Fairfax. they were 3 of the best men I ever worked with. Genial, lighthearted, and good railroaders. they had the respect of everyone. One day while in one of the private crs where some of the top-ranking CNW officials rode, Vern said, "When are we gonna get some new uniforms aroound here? We should have green ones to match the coaches." And thus it began. Hart Shaffner Marx was brought in the very next week. hey came up with some ideas, but their price was too high. So Ruben Carlson, whose family had owned Carlson uniform, came up with what became the green uniform. The stripe on the trousers was suggested by a trainmaster who said he could spot a trainman at a bar by his trouser stripe. That 1/2 inch, black mohair stripe would snag and come off from time to time. They also thought it would "Be like the airlines," if the conductors had two stripes on their coat sleeves, and the collectors would have one. That would cause a problem when a recently set-up conductor would only hve a one-stripe coat to wear when he was called to work a conductor's assignment. The trainmaster would just have to open up his mouth and remark on it. Since the CNW was so successful with their suburban operations, the IC just had to copy. With the introduction of the new Highliner double deck MU cars in 1971 the IC came out with there green uniform. heirs was worse. The cap had no title. Just an elevator hat with the orange split-rail and a gold strap. The coats came with no outside pockets. A vest was not provided. However, an IC trainman, who later went to Amtrak as an official, decided to wear an orange vest with his uniform. Wow! The IC went one step further by attempting a "wash and wear" uniform so the employees wouldn't have to take their uniforms to the cleaners so often. Turned out that the Mrs wasn't so keen on washing the suits, and when they did, the results were less than satisfactory.

The story of the evolution of the Amtrak uniform is even more sad, but I'll leave that for another time.

Remember that in the days of the old Burlingtin uniforms, only white shirts were worn. The blue shirt craze began on the Rock Island as a concession for having to work non-air-conditioned cars in the summer. The IC quickly followed suit. As I stated earlier, Milwaukee men were then permitted to wear blue shirts as an option, but had tostill wear the coats even in 90 degree weather. After the airline caps were adopted on the "Q" in '66, sometime in the late '60s, Burlington men were permitted t wear light blue shirts. The mis-thinking in this was that blue wouldn't show dirt as it would on a white shirt and thus the shirts wouldn't have to be laundered as much. However, as I pinted out to the RTA when I secified the more dressy white shirt, hygiene demands frequent laundering.

Coat insignia badges on the Burlington uniforms were affixed on the top of the lapels, below the notch as opposed to above the notch on the collar as was standard on all other railroads. This started in '56 when the lighter blue uniform with red tie came about with the new Denver Zephyr. Probably as an accident which of course became a standard.

In the sixties some railroads eliminated coat sleeve buttons. As more and more women were commuting, and because they wore long hair with no head covering, trainmen would snag the girls hair on the buttons while collecting tickets.

Mitch

[Anonymous]

Thank you for all the info, Mitch. I bought a BN conductor's uniform that has a made for Metra label by Caleb V. Smith on the inside. It is dark blue and I only have the coat and trousers. The trousers were way too large, and even after tailoring, are too baggy. I am searching for trousers more my size, along with a vest and a proper hat. I borrowed an original CBQ hat for a special occasion last year but eventually hope to complete my uniform. I like to "conduct" infrequently as I prefer the right hand seat up front. Thanks again and I might contact you if any other questions arise.

[Anonymous]

When I was on The Milwaukee Road, I handled the uniforms for a uniform company out of New York. I've had a long standing interest in uniforms. I also designed the original specs for the Metra uniforms.

After around 1920, the standard uniform was a 4-button "sack" coat with standard lapels, a 6-button vest, and trousers. They were made of 12 to 16 oz. wool, that was navy blue. Conductors, and dining car stewards, station masters, had gold buttons and trim. Trainmen, gatemen, attendants, etc, received silver buttons and trim. After WWII, some railroads began to change their uniforms. One of the first was the Santa Fe. They went to a 3 buton coat with a "Military Officer's Cap" ( from their specs) to honor General Eisenhower. The KCS went to a grey uniform. The Burlington went to a lighter, more blue shade of cloth with a red tie in '56, and went to a millitary hat in '66. The GN went to a "french blue" uniform in '56, with a military cap. The Rock did the same, and included a light blue tie. The Rock Island referred to their cap as "Yachting Style" in their specs. Men on the Rock Island tended to take the "grommet" (stiffiner) out of their caps giving them the "20 mission crush" look. Later they went to light blue shirts as well. The worst exmples, before Amtrak came along with costume ware, was the CNW in '69. They went to a 2 button coat in forestry green,(same as park rangers) "Continental Styled," with slanted pockets ,with a black stripe down the side of the trousers. One stripe on the sleeve for a collector, and two for a conductor. They had a mililtary cap as well. the IC went to the same thing in '71 except they just had the logo on the military cap and plain black buttons.
Dining car stewards generaly wore a conductor's uniform with a white, startched vest. the B&O, and NYC stewards wore grey trousers with their uniforms. Some stewards wore formalwear, appropriate for time of day, i.e. dark grey coat, striped trousers for day, tux for dinner.

Flaps on trainmen's uniform coat pockets... Some railroads had them, others didn't. The UP had a phoney flap so the conductor could place items in the pocket without lifting the flap. The IC specified that mainline uniforms would have them, suburban uniforms wouldn't.

Leather trim...was optional and usually had to be payed for by the employee. Many suburban men had that applied. Staten Island Rapid Transit uniforms had large leather patches placed above the skirt and punch pockets of their coats, along with leather trimmed sleeve edges. I saw some SP suburban men that had leather applied all the way around the coat edges, lapels, and collars. Sometimes this was applied as a repair.

The Milwaukee Road as an old time option allowed men to wear "Black, Alpaca suits" as a substitute during summer months. Later on Milwaukee men were allowed to order black uniforms as an option. Some Milwaukee men had seams perminately stitched into the trouser legs to avoid pressing their pants. Another option for Milwaukee brakeman only was grey shirts. this was permitted account they had to couple cars and steam joints and it was felt that white shirts would be ruined. In the '60s Milwaukee men were permitted to wear light blue shirts on suburban trains only.

Pockets. A coat would have 2 skirt pockets ( the large pockets) 2 punch pockets, 1 *** pocket, and four inside pockets. NYC men were permitted to have a right side *** pocket for their round trip cash fare books. This then was known as a "round trip pocket."
A vest would have 4 outside pockets, and 2 inside pockets. An option was a narrow pencil pocket placed above the top left pocket. Trousers would have 2 side pockets, either straight or slightly at an angle known as "quarter top pockets," a watch pocket, two rear hip pockets, and as an option a "punch pocket" for their punch above either the right or left hip pocket. The Long Island, and Southern, among others, specified a heavy patch that surrounded the coat pockets, much like streetcar uniform.

The Pennsy and the CN are the only 2 railroads I know of that had, at one time, double breasted uniform coats. Early in the 20th Century many railroads used them.

Grey uniforms...The Rio Grande, The Long Island, and KCS are the only railroads I know of that had grey uniforms, until '68 when CN and GT went to a dark charcoal grey uniform. The KCS had a standard trainman's uniform and cap with beautiful collar badges. The Rio Grande had an airline style uniform, made by Hamilton Uniform in Cincinnati. The caps had a nice RG logo and a metal strap. The word conductor, or trainman, was embroidered on the welt of the coat *** pocket. The CN grey uniform caps had no badge at all. Conductors had a wide yellow cap band, trainmen had white, porters had red. Grand Trunk men retined their badges after the change. The Long Island reverted to blue uniforms in 1974.

Trim on caps...There were several standard types of trim. Two 1/4 inch stripes at the center and bottom, one stripe at center with a cloth cord at bottom, or just a cord at the bottom either yellow or white, or just black. Some railroads had elaborate badges, some just had a plain badge with the job title, or the title was embroidered in bullion or cloth. On the NYC, conductors, assistant conductors and collectors had two stripes. Brakemen and train baggagemen had a plain cap with badge. The Pennsy until just after WWII had three stripes. Top, center, and bottom.

Pullman Conductors wore a standard uniform, except for a while the coats had 5 buttons, and the vests had 7 buttons. Porters wore "bell collared" coats with trousers, all navy blue. In the heat, and in the cars they wore white linen coats.

I could go on but if you have any questions, email me at [e-mail], and I'll be happy to answer them. I have a whole set of IC RR specs.

Mitch

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

Pillbox caps are still fairly common. The caps worn by the conductor and trainmen on my line (Metra Southwest) are made of a stiff dark blue mesh instead of solid cloth.

As an aside, the conductors on PATH (Hudson Tubes) wore pillbox caps, which is not what you would expect on a transit system.

[Anonymous]

Thanks so much for the info. I was curious and sometimes it's hard to tell about uniforms by photos. I really appreciate the detail about the construction of the uniforms and I hope more people will comment about this part of railroading that I've never seen discussed anywhere.

[Anonymous]

As passengerfan points out, employees in different crafts wore distinct uniforms. Pullman Co. employees wore Pullman uniforms; other onboard employees wore uniforms specified by the carrier or carriers (in the case of jointly-operated trains).

Recall that on long-distance trains the porters and dining and lounge car staff stayed onboard for the length of the train's run; engine and train crews (engineer, fireman, train baggageman, conductor and brakemen) traded off at crew-change points, which might be 100 to 300 or so miles apart.

Railroads did provide specifications to uniform tailors--as to type and color of fabric and cut of the cloth. If you can find a uniform tailor which has retained its railroad specifications on file, you'll have all that is needed to have uniforms recreated to order.

Black and Navy blue were common uniform colors, but others weren't uncommon. In the '60s, the CB&Q used a royal blue, Rio Grande (IIRC) gray, and C&NW an olive green.

The traditional uniform worn by conductors and brakemen was a 3-piece suit: coat, vest and trousers. They were designed for long service and hard use. Pockets were of the slit type (no flaps) and were edged with leather, as were coat cuffs. Coats often had 2 side pockets on each side, arranged one above the other. A 4-button, single-breasted style was most common. Vests also had several pockets (not your typical 2-pocket bartender's vest) although they usually didn't get the leather treatment on the pocket edges.

Coat and vest buttons weren't sewn on. Instead, they were affixed with a sort of cotter key to allow easy change-out. Brass was typical for a conductor's buttons, nickle for a brakeman's.

The railroad's logo or initials often were applied to one or both coat lapels or collars. These might be embroidered or a metal fastening.

Uniform hats had military styling. The older, pilbox-with-a-brim style was most common. Peaked caps came into use after WWII. Badges indicating occupation (conductor, flagman, etc.) might or might not include the railroad's name, initials or logo.

[passengerfan]

As I recall the waiters on the GN wore white Jackets with green GN lettering and piping and if memory serves me right a bow tie was part of the uniforn for lunch and dinner and i believe it was optional for breakfast. The Pullman Steward wore a Grey suit and the Pullman porters wore grey pants and a white jacket while on the car and great grey coats when assisting passengers boarding in the winter. The Conductor and Trainmen wore dark blue or maybe it was black uniforms and the Dining car steward wore a dark blue suit or maybe it was also black. I can't for the life of me remember what the coach attendants wore. Is this the type of information you were seeking.

[Anonymous]

Hello. As a long time railfan who just faintly recalls the era of rr ran passenger trains, I am seeking info on the uniforms used on these trains. I am doing this for my own benefit and also because the excursion railroad I voulunteer at is thinking of implementing standards for our trains. I am well familiar with the products of Transquip, Inc. so please no commercials. I am looking for memories, specs, etc. Thanks.