Postwar Broadway Limited v. 20th Century

[Anonymous]

After reading the thread about the greatest passenger trains in North America - a couple of questions came to mind which many of you knowledgeable railfans out there could certainly answer:

1. In what years did the NYC and PRR re-equip the 20th Century and Broadway? - It seems it was around 1948-1949...

2. The 20th Century remained all-pullman until 1958, and I believe the Broadway remained all-pullman until or almost until Amtrak in '71 - does anyone know the years in question?

3. As the greatest north american passenger train thread suggests to me, the three most commonly voted for pre-Amtrak passenger trains were, in no particular order:

1. Super Chief;
2. Twentieth Century Ltd.
3. Broadway Ltd.

Putting personal preferences aside (easier said than done...) were there any specific features of the actual passenger cars or on-board services on each train which gave one an advantage over the other? For example, the Super Chief had an onboard barber, ability to host private-room dining parties in the Turquoise Room, etc.... What were the special features which set the 20th Century or Broadway apart?

[passengerfan]

The answer to question 1 is September 15, 1948 both trains were reequipped. Not sure about question 2. As to question3 Only the postwar Broadway of the three trains had Master room. All three trains provided superb service and the crews were the best the Pullman Company could provide. Super Chief was fastest of three. Twentieth Century eastbound running along Hudson before arrival in New York was probably best scenery of all three. Having had the privelege of riding all three I guess I am partial to Super Chief, and I can't explain why. There really was an aura surrounding the Super Chief not found in the other two. Even the Chief I favored over the two eastern trains.

[Anonymous]

Out of curiosity - did you ever ride the UP's City of Los Angeles or other city trains? How did the UP's passenger trains stack up to the finest the ATSF, NYC and PRR had to offer?

[passengerfan]

Rode all three of the major City trains before they were consolidated City Of Los Angeles City of Portland, and City of San Francisco.. The Latter City of San Francisco always seemed to missing something. City of Portland was a fine train as was City of LA but maybe it was because the UP owned or operated so much equipment they never seemed to be as nice as those of the other trains or maybe it was the AC&F cars. themselves. Although the GN Empire Builder operated with some Ac& F built cars and they were among some of the finest cars I ever ever had the privelege of riding on. The NP North Coast Limited was another fine train as was the Canadian and Super Continental. I feel lucky to have ridden all of them and many more besides.

[Anonymous]

Your comments are definitely appreciated from someone who has only known the Amtrak era!! My all-time favorite railroad, particularly for passenger trains, is the Santa Fe - as a really young kid, my dad always used to tell me that we would ride the Super Chief some day (this was around '74-'75 - my dad didn't realize at the time that Amtrak had taken over almost everything by then - as a young kid, neither did I. You can imagine how disappointed I was after about a year of dreaming about riding the Super Chief that it no longer existed (apart from the Southwest Limited in '75).

Anyway, since I'll never get to ride the Super, which sleepers did you ride on? Second, did you notice any real big differences between the Pullman Standard vs. AC&F Regal series, the Budd Pine series, AC&F Palm series, Indian series, etc.? Did any particular class seem to ride better or quieter, have somewhat nicer interiors that the others, etc.? Thanks.

[Anonymous]

Mr. Frank, can I jump in??

The ATSF Blue series 10-3-2 sleepers were reputed to have the best riding roomettes overall. Having ridden one in 1967, I tend to agree. What made them so nice was that they were dead center in the car, sandwiched between the bedrooms and compartments, which were grouped at the ends.

Everything ATSF had was well-maintained and rode well, right up to the end. Have ridden Palm, Pine and Regal, in addition to Blue, and they were all good, except right over the trucks, of course.

[passengerfan]

Pullman Sleeping cars always seemed to have that finished look that seemed to be lacking in some of the AC&F cars. Happened to ride Super Chief in Pine Fern and Palm Star the former a Budd 10-6 the latter an AC&F 10-6. My notes don't point up any differences in ride or comfort level. I think the ride probably depended more on the trucks beneath the cars and what the tracks were like in the case of the Santa Fe they had excellent roadbed that made for very comfortable ride. I don't know whether it was the construction method used by Budd or what but their always seemed to be less minor rattles and a little quieter ride than AC&F and Pullman Standard built cars. Food service on the Super Chief was something to look forward to and watching the New Mexico scenery pass from the Pleasure dome was a great way to pass the time when not reading or taking a nap. I always found the train to induce more sleep than a plane when I traveled and if I had the time always took the train. The lounge area of the Pleasure dome was always the place to meet and talk with fellow travellers while enjoying an Adult beverage or two. Remember one evening on Super Chief was relaxing in Vista Plains which had already had its Observation end squared off for mid-train operation but was on the rear of the Super this night where an Observation should be and was talking to fellow passengers in the lounge when one mentioned we should have a drink. I said that the car was not equipped with a bar to which my fellow passenger said it didn't matter. He left his seat foa a minute and located the car attendant who immediatly ttok our drink orders and returned in about ten minutes with the orders. I don't know how much my fellow passenger tipped the car attendant for this service but I was favorably impressed. There was just something about the treatment received by the passengers of the Super Chief that always left me in awe. The Empire Builder crews I encountered always impressed me as well and It would be very difficult to choose between the two crews, As far as the trains I lean toward the Super as it was all Pullman and the Pullman area of the Empire Builder was excellent and the Great Dome Lounge superb but I never saw it crowded. At the same time there was only sixteen seats in the pleasure dome and I don't think I ever had trouble findingf a seat. I believe passengers arriving by trainb having traveled first class for a day or two were far more relaxed than after a four or five hour flight , and that is probably even more true today. I think Amtrak has a very definite shortage of sleeping accomodations and this needs to be corrected to give travelklers who have never experienced sleeping car travle a chance to do so, they would then throw rocks at the Boeings and Airbuses and the overcrowded terminals. Who knows if the Airlines continue to lose money in the billions maybe they will self destruct and we can have passenger trains back once again as god intended.

[Anonymous]

Like the Super Chief, the Century had a barber until 1958 (the barbershop was in the club lounge cars (Atlantic Shore and Lake Shore)). Actually, the Century was the fastest of the 3 trains. At its fastest it averaged a bit over 60 mph from New York to Chicago. The Broadway's average speed was slower because it had a shorter (but more rugged) route. The Super Chief averaged about 56 mph. The Century was re-equipped in September 1948; the Broadway's new cars didn't arrive until March 15, 1949. The Broadway was discontinued on December 13, 1967 although the name was transferred to the General. One amenity the Broadway and the Century offered that the Super Chief didn't was telephone service. And the Broadway and the Century operated out of eastern terminals that were incomparably superior to the Super Chief's Dearborn St. Station. I never understood why the Santa Fe stayed in that hole when it would have been so easy to switch to GM&O tracks into Union Station.

[Anonymous]

Too young to have ridden the real Century or the B'way, but I did ride the steam heated Amtrak Southwest Chief in March, 1977. Still had the big coaches from the El Cap, a great diner, and took only two overnights from Chicago to LA!

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

In the pre-Amtrak era, ATSF probably stayed at Dearborn Station in part because of the location of its own coach yard, which was east of the south approaches to Union Station. ATSF was a tenant at Dearborn and would have also been a tenant at Union Station so rental and usage fees may have been another factor.

Amtrak continued to use the ATSF coach yard into the late 1970's with some Amtrak RS3's assigned to it after 1976. Moves into and out of that yard involved a switchback maneuver just south of South Branch Bridge to move a consist into or out of Union Station.

[Anonymous]

Most all the railroad re-equip. their trains between 1948 and 1950. ACL re-equip their Champion in 1950.

[espeefoamer]

I have ridden both Pullman and Budd sleepers on Amtrak.I even rode in a drawing room in the Pullman built Regal Creek on the Southwest Limited. I always thought the roomettes were nicer in the Budd cars.

[espeefoamer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mr. Frank

After reading the thread about the greatest passenger trains in North America - a couple of questions came to mind which many of you knowledgeable railfans out there could certainly answer:

1. In what years did the NYC and PRR re-equip the 20th Century and Broadway? - It seems it was around 1948-1949...

2. The 20th Century remained all-pullman until 1958, and I believe the Broadway remained all-pullman until or almost until Amtrak in '71 - does anyone know the years in question?

3. As the greatest north american passenger train thread suggests to me, the three most commonly voted for pre-Amtrak passenger trains were, in no particular order:

1. Super Chief;
2. Twentieth Century Ltd.
3. Broadway Ltd.

Putting personal preferences aside (easier said than done...) were there any specific features of the actual passenger cars or on-board services on each train which gave one an advantage over the other? For example, the Super Chief had an onboard barber, ability to host private-room dining parties in the Turquoise Room, etc.... What were the special features which set the 20th Century or Broadway apart?

The Broadway started carrying coaches shortly before the merger into Penn Central.
In a December 1967 timetable it was still all Pullman.

[Anonymous]

At the end The Broadway ws not all-Pullman, but all-sleeping car. I just learned this recently as the Pennsy closed its relation with The Pullman Company in June of '67.

An item the fascinates me about the Broadway is the availabilty of meal service in both the Pullman lounge and the Pullman observation car. Both cars' kitchens were equiped with a broiler and hot plate for food preperation. I always wondered what it would have been like to have breakfast in Tower View going through Phili. I've seen this mentioned in ads, and have a friend who has confirmed this but I'm still a little uncertain about this detail.

The Broadway had a barber shop until the '50s when it was replaced by the telephone room.

If both the Century and Broadway were running today in their 1950 versions, I couldn't choose between the two. I would have to go one way on one, and return on the other.

There was something very special about the Santa Fe indeed. They were adult-strength and mature about how they treated the traveling public. The Santa Fe understood the value of their corporate image, in its entirety, being represented by their passenger service. Even in their linch counter diners on The Chicagoan one felt they were somewhere special. Santa Fe and Fred Harvey could make an order of bacon and toast seem like a hotel banquette.

Mitch

[Anonymous]

The Broadway lost its barbershop in 1949 when it was re-equipped. PRR management couldn't decide whether to reinstate the extra fare (which had been dropped in 1943) and ordered midtrain lounges with 2 bedrooms, barbershop with shower, train secretary room, telephone, bar-buffet and lounge space. It was decided that there would be no extra fare, so the barbershop, shower, and secretary were basically dead space. In the mid-fifties they were replaced with 3 more bedrooms. The telephone did not replace the barbershop.

[Anonymous]

TO MR. FRANK; How did the City Trains stack up. I love trains but I can't say that I hear alot about UP passenger trains. Can someone email me some info on this. Also please check out my Phow Shows on railroading at;
//photoshow.comcast.net/richardtrains

[artpeterson]

Let me put one vote in for the dome dining cars on the UP. Rode one on the "City of LA" through a thunderstorm in Iowa in the summer of 1969 - spectacular! On that ride the track got better the further west we went. Return was via the "Cal Zephyr" which also deserves mention in this string for having a master bedroom with shower in the dome-obs.

[passengerfan]

Artpeterson I dont\'t want to be the bearer of bad news but the accommodations on the CZ were Bedrooms, Compartments Roomettes Sections and Drawing Room, The lone Drawing room was in the Dome Observation and was the only drawing rooms that featured showers in the bathroom annex. The other sleeping accommodations in the Observbations was three Double Bedrooms. The cars for the Candian were built to almost an identical floorplan except the Drawing Room Bathroom annex was not shower equipped.