Is it just me or were the Berkshires (2-8-4's) just awesome, handsome and balanced looking engines compared to most other types? There's just something about them that really grabs me.
I'm especially fond of the Norfolk Southern F-1, L&N M-1 and RF&P engines.
oldline1
It's not just you. The Berkshires were "...awesome, handsome, and balanced looking engines..."! Some were better-looking than others of course, but on the whole they were a very successful type and did the job splendidly. It's no wonder that as far as Big Steam locomotives went they were among the last to go.
The RF&P was a bit late to the Berkshire show, only purchasing them during WW2 when they needed more steam freight engines that had to move. At the height of the war you could stand trackside by the RF&P and see trains moving north and south every fifteen minutes! They were that busy! Imagine, freight and passenger trains running on commuter train schedules. They were well satisfied with their Berks!
I would agree that the Van Sweringen 2-8-4's (and most other designs out of the Advisory Mechanical Committee) were especially handsome locomotives. On the other hand, B&M's 2-8-4's with their Coffin feedwater heaters were not so great looking.
Readers of this thread might enjoy Ed Weinstein's discussion of Berkshire design (as posted on steamlocomotive.com).
Berkshires have always been my favorite, just like stretched Berkshires (Yellowstones) are my favorite articulateds. I liked the concept and I liked the railroads that used them.
It does have to be said, though, that I still generally prefer 4-8-4s to Berks. For example, imho the RF&P "AMC clones" didn't hold a candle to any of the RF&P's classes (Generals, Governors, and Statesmen). It is well understood that the L&N Emmas would have been 4-8-4s had available turntables been a smidge longer ... they are honorary 4-8-4s in proportion and style even so. I'm a great fan of the A-2-A Berk (most of its problems were circumstantial or related to outright neglect) but it is just not a Niagara (or C1a which is a sort of honorary 4-8-4)
Doesn't mean I don't like Berks, by any means -- or the Berk-and-a-half that is a good 2-6-6-4 or 2-6-6-6; those would not benefit materially from having a four-wheel leading truck ... and no, I don't rate Challengers of any stripe in the same august category. The first true high-speed Super-Power freight locomotives in the world were the Erie S-class Berks, from which came the C&O T1, from which came the AMC family, all of which are awe-inspiring and seminal, and of course from there came the PRR J1 and J1a which did essentially everything a peacetime PRR could expect out of a ten-coupled locomotive of any sophistication. But to me there's more thrill in a proper two-axle lead truck on a high-speed eight-coupled, and the proportions are better.
Virginian crews loved their BA 2-8-4s and AG 2-6-6-6's. Lima built locomotives for the mid-20th Century that were beautifully proportioned, like the SP GS classes.
oldline1Is it just me or were the Berkshires (2-8-4's) just awesome, handsome and balanced looking engines compared to most other types?
You'll get no argument from me!
Same me, different spelling!
Awesome machine!
Does Ohio have an official state steam engine? If not, I nominate NKP 765! Ohio born and bred!
Incidently, 2-8-4's for the P&LE were the last steam engines that ALCO build for a US railroad.
Flintlock76Does Ohio have an official state steam engine? If not, I nominate NKP 759!
MidlandMike... 2-8-4's for the P&LE were the last steam engines that ALCO built for a US railroad ...
And Baldwin's last domestic steam locomotive was a compound 2-6-6-2 (C&O 1309) while Roanoke's last steam was an 0-8-0.
Overmod Flintlock76 Does Ohio have an official state steam engine? If not, I nominate NKP 759! At this point I think 765 deserves the title more...
Flintlock76 Does Ohio have an official state steam engine? If not, I nominate NKP 759!
At this point I think 765 deserves the title more...
Mamma mia! You right! 'Scusa me! I fix!
That bogus number on the smokebox threw me off!
Flintlock76Mamma mia! You right! 'Scusa me! I fix!
To a kid in that era, 759 was a magic number, one of the most famous locomotives in the world. I hope the day comes when it is once again to a new generation.
Flintlock76 Awesome machine! Does Ohio have an official state steam engine? If not, I nominate NKP 765! Ohio born and bred!
That's a tough one. There's the only survivng N&W pacific down near Columbus. Of course there's GTW 4070 undergoing restoration here:
It's moved along quite a bit since I took that pic: https://www.midwestrailway.org/article/4070-news
This little Vulcan is also near me:
And this little one is in Dover behind Mooney Warther's house:
Plus everything at Age of Steam and Mad River.
But how do we classify 2100 now?
She'll likely pull excursions here, but does she really belong to Ohio?
pennytrains Flintlock76 Does Ohio have an official state steam engine? That's a tough one.
Flintlock76 Does Ohio have an official state steam engine?
Does Ohio have an official state steam engine?
That's a tough one.
I might add that a couple of clear contenders for 'greatest locomotive from Ohio' don't really count, either. Ross Rowland's 614 is head-and-shoulders superior to any Berkshire, but has very little history in Ohio other than being conceived and birthed there. Ditto the Alleghenies, the moral equivalent of a Berk-and-a-half but never really used as their designer intended.
So what it comes down to is finding a distinctive locomotive built in Ohio, run successfully during its regular lifetime in Ohio, then providing a world-class experience afterward as seen and loved by millions ... including operations in Ohio. And for that, we can forgive nominal current ownership slightly west of Ohio proper. The Fort Wayne people think and act like proper Ohioans. So there's a very long lead for 765 as a candidate, and no real contenders near...
Grand Trunk Western? Built in Schenectady? Because it's been lying derelict in Ohio an extended time??? Give me some of that stuff you musta been smokin'!
Well the Nickle Plate did run through Ohio, and presumably so did 765, so even if it lives in Indiana now it's no stretch to call it an Ohio engine.
I zoomed in on the photo of that Grand Pacific Junction 0-4-0, it looks like it's in decent shape and appears to be "all there." I wonder what it would take to get it running again?
Somebody call the Gramlings!
Gorgeous trains!
Flintlock76Well the Nickle Plate did run through Ohio
Well....if we're talking about something that's 100% original to Ohio (at least as far as being the first company anywhere to build one) you have to go with Ephraim's Shay (he himself was a Michigander). The prototype was built by Lima in 1880. It has 45 years on the Berk.
Calling Hoosiers buckeyes, is somewhat of an insult, Mr Lock.
What is wrong with NKP779? Last steam locomotive built by Lima. It sits literally yards from her birthplace. It ran in and through Ohio on the NKP. It checks all the boxes, except it's not operational.
rrnut282Calling Hoosiers buckeyes, is somewhat of an insult, Mr Lock.
Beg pardon, you'll have to forgive my ignorance of the nuances of Midwestern "relationships."
Growing up in New Jersey and having to deal with New York on one side and Pennsylvania on the other was enough of a challenge.
I do know what people from Vermont, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Connecticut call people from Massachusetts but don't dare say it, I'd been banned from here for 100 years!
I believe the current 'going rate' is just under 152 years.
I wonder how many demerits that translates into?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Flintlock76rrnut282Calling Hoosiers buckeyes, is somewhat of an insult, Mr Lock.Beg pardon, you'll have to forgive my ignorance of the nuances of Midwestern "relationships."
And yes, it's ironic that Indiana effort is what makes 765 head-and-shoulders the leading candidate for canonical Ohio Steam Locomotive.
Crestline is in Ohio.
BackshopCrestline is in Ohio.
But still, the raceway is to the 'left' of there and much of the magic, too... blah blah blah and stuff. I just don't want to be left looking like I'm dissing Indiana...
I remember in one of John Crosby's stories that Crestline was the dividing line between the "ridgerunners" and the "flatlander" crews. That was right before longer crew districts were implemented IIRC.
Crestline had a massive roundhouse. It was sold to a man that owned an auto scrapyard. I met him once when I was taking pictures of it from what I thought was railroad property. This was well before 9-11. He (not very nicely) informed me that it wasn't. I never made that mistake again...
Backshop I never made that mistake again...
I suppose it's just as well. As with Lima, or Alco in Schenectady, or Baldwin in Philadelphia ... or Budd on Red Lion Road ... or EMD in LaGrange. When it's over and all that's left is perpetual embarrassment... perhaps remembering the past only in memories might be better.
Another couple of "Ohio Berkshires" that no one has mentioned are C&O #2700 in Dennison and 2776 in Washington Court House.
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