Possible picture of Pine(Texas) Cotton Belt passenger train crash ?

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Possible picture of Pine(Texas) Cotton Belt passenger train crash ?
Posted by Name141 on Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 PM

I was looking through some of the old family photos and came across this photo.  Can anyone confirm what the locals think? They think it might be Unsure, but Press Quillin is on the end, family member from 1881 - 1965.https://tylerpaper.com/news/local/friday-is-th-anniversary-of-fatal-cotton-belt-passenger-train/article_184baf76-2936-5556-99c5-b0def6e317e1.html related.

Tags: Pine , Pittsburg , Texas , Tyler
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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, April 7, 2020 8:20 PM

Someone would have to explain very carefully to me why a Frisco ten-wheeler would have been involved in a Cotton Belt accident.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, April 8, 2020 7:08 AM

There is no accident report in the DOT accident investigation database for a SSW incident on March 31, 1917.

https://dotlibrary.specialcollection.net/Contents  This side requires a free registration.

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:09 AM

BaltACD
There is no accident report in the DOT accident investigation database for a SSW incident on March 31, 1917.

Balt, I can't get the DOT library to come up correctly here.  Is there an accident report for SLSF on (or near) that date?  (Look for the 4-6-0 power in the results...)

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Posted by NP Eddie on Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:21 AM

This is a mystery that may require you to contact the SSW Historical Society.

Pine, Texas is on the SSW only and, like BALT, there is not ICC accident report for the SSW in 1917. The picture is not big enough to tell much about the accident except that it was a passenger train wreck of that era.

Ed Burns

Retired Clerk Class 1 from Northtown (Minneapolis).

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Posted by Overmod on Wednesday, April 8, 2020 11:36 AM

NP Eddie
The picture is not big enough to tell much about the accident except that it was a passenger train wreck of that era.

It's big enough to show (and permit identification of) the Frisco locomotive, though.  Any actual involvement of the photograph with "Pine, Texas" would first have to account for the fact of what appears in it.

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Posted by SSW9389 on Thursday, April 9, 2020 11:45 AM

Tony Wilson of the Tyler Tap Chapter CBRHS did a presentation about the Pine, Texas wreck at our 12th Cotton Belt Symposium at Texas A&M University-Commerce. The presentation was done on the 100th Anniversary year of the Pine Wreck. If I remember correctly a Cotton Belt Ten Wheeler of the G-0 class led the train. That would be one of the 650s. There weren't any Frisco engines involved. 

See http://faculty.tamuc.edu/jdavis/railroad/symposium/symposium/CBRRS2017.htm

Ed in Kentucky

Cotton Belt Chapter

CBRHS 

COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 9, 2020 11:53 AM

SSW9389
If I remember correctly a Cotton Belt Ten Wheeler of the G-0 class led the train. That would be one of the 650s. There weren't any Frisco engines involved. 

So, unless someone can substantiate how a Frisco plate with 736 wound up on a Cotton Belt G-0, the OP's picture can't be the Pine, Texas wreck.

Now we have to find out what the picture actually refers to...

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Posted by SSW9389 on Thursday, April 9, 2020 11:58 AM

Tony plowed through quite a bit of newspaper accounts of the wreck. He reported that Cotton Belt G-0 #662 led the train that wrecked at Pine. 

COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by SSW9389 on Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:08 PM

There is a John Winfield painting of Cotton Belt #662 passing the Pittsburg, Texas depot with a passenger train. If I remember correctly Tony Wilson commissioned Mr. Winfield to do the painting. An internet search should bring up the painting to view. 

 

Ed in Kentucky

COTTON BELT: Runs like a Blue Streak!
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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 9, 2020 12:15 PM

SSW9389
There is a John Winfield painting of Cotton Belt #662 passing the Pittsburg, Texas depot with a passenger train.

It's called "Charlie Dunn's Last Ride" (Dunn was the fireman).

I can't find the image in a search, but I bet Vince and Mike can...

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Posted by NP Eddie on Thursday, April 9, 2020 10:01 PM

After doing research in the DOT Data Base, I cannot find any SLSF accidents between 1914 and 1920 involving a passenger train with that number. Looking at the dress of the citizens in that pictures, I believe that the accident was between 1900 and 1913.

Also there may be a confusion between one (a long time ago) mistaking the St. Louis Southwestern RR and the SLSF.

My advise is the contact the SLSF Historical Society for futher information. As noted in prior posts, the SSW Railroad was not the railroad involved in the accident.

Ed Burns

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Posted by Name141 on Wednesday, April 22, 2020 5:57 PM

So the general census came up with: it's probably NOT the passanger train wreck?  John "Press" Quillin was alive between 1881 and 1965.  Since he's on the end there, 1900-1913 seems to be resonable.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, April 23, 2020 11:10 AM

Name141
So the general consensus came up with: it's probably NOT the passenger train wreck?

What is absolutely certain is that the locomotive visible in the picture is not a Cotton Belt engine.  It is a specific Frisco engine, of a specific and identified class.

The wreck pictured must, therefore, either have involved a Frisco engine on the head of a train, or a collision with a Frisco engine.  

Absent some explanation of how this locomotive might have gotten to Pine, Texas, it is highly unlikely the picture shows a wreck there.

Absent some explanation of how a Frisco locomotive got onto the Cotton Belt, it is highly unlikely the picture shows a Cotton Belt wreck ... at any time period.

The timeframe is that between the time that a 4-6-0 with slanted piston valves would be built and used in passenger service and the time different power came to be used for that service.  Won't be before 1905, which is when the engine was built in Schenectady; I can't find any evidence it was built with different valves and converted to piston valves later to give a starting date.  It served as late as WWII, which is much later than the appearance of the photo itself dates.

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Posted by NDG on Thursday, April 23, 2020 2:02 PM
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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, April 23, 2020 10:39 PM

Well there you go !  Lowell Arkansas 

Everyone say " thank you NDG" 

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Posted by Name141 on Friday, April 24, 2020 4:52 AM
Hm. Wonder what happened there? What year was it?
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Posted by Overmod on Friday, April 24, 2020 8:25 AM

I've looked around with limited resources and found nothing (there was apparently a wreck there with a tourist train circa 2014!)

The details of clothing and the antiquity of the wreck-train engine point to a date well before WWI for this accident, perhaps not long after the introduction of engine 736 to service.  It is possible that some other image in the Arkansas state archives will have more information; I suspect from the two images we have that the event was well-photographed.

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Posted by Name141 on Friday, April 24, 2020 12:24 PM

Overmod

I've looked around with limited resources and found nothing (there was apparently a wreck there with a tourist train circa 2014!)

The details of clothing and the antiquity of the wreck-train engine point to a date well before WWI for this accident, perhaps not long after the introduction of engine 736 to service.  It is possible that some other image in the Arkansas state archives will have more information; I suspect from the two images we have that the event was well-photographed.

 

 

That would be accurate in the timeline of them still being in Arkansas to have been photographed there vs coming to Pittsburg, Texas.

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Posted by Name141 on Saturday, April 25, 2020 3:12 AM

It has been found by a  Jim Tackett of Arksansa. "This is from the book, Trails, Rails and Ribbons of Highway which gives the date." It's from 1897. https://ibb.co/28z6TV2

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